This is in an unbelievable reduction of the reality, but sure. I’d also love a citation on how Trump will be worse for Palestine. Unless you’re going to suggest something utterly outrageous like he’s going to nuke the whole planet or something, the situation is already a horrific genocide. Harris and Biden are already funding and arming the genociders. Trump has said this is also what he plans to do. His main argument against Harris vis a vis Palestinian genocide is that he’s better friends with Netanyahu.
Man it’s getting downright gross how liberals are just so blasé about their acceptance of Palestinians being murdered.
Democrats could nominate hitler reincarnated but you people would people would be defending them because republicans would have hitler reincarnated but who also hates animals. “Other guy worse” as a defense only means things continue getting worse because there will always be something worse. When can things actually get better for a change?
The guy at the lever actually has the power to stop the trolley entirely.
How do you figure that could be done?
Are you fucking serious?
Yes
You can’t imagine any way that the the POTUS, an office with essentially unbridled military power at its disposal, could intervene to stop an ongoing genocide?
The person with the lever is supposed to be the voter. Not the potus.
Just because you want to interpret this meme in that way doesn’t mean I have to.
But will they, that’s the question.
They have the ability to, but if they won’t, then we still end up with the same two choices. And if picking the other side won’t make them change their mind, then whatever they can do is irrelevant in a conversation about what will produce the best tangible outcome.
I reject and condemn any system that says I can only choose between two genocidal monsters. There is no redeeming value to be had.
Then I suppose you simply must reject the world we live in right now.
Both sides are going to continue the genocide, we know that, it’s their stated positions. The most we can do with our votes in the current election is take a stance of harm reduction, since that’s the only choice available. Anything else won’t make a change to the system of oppression facing the Palestinians today.
There is no “harm reduction”. I do reject the parts and people of the world that revel in or even accept the wholesale slaughter of children. Bargaining with their lives is moral bankruptcy, and signifies a total lack of value. Let me ask you a question: can you imagine anything that would cause you to not vote for the democrats? If full throated support for genocide isn’t a bridge too far, I have to wonder if you have any absolute principles at all.
There is no “harm reduction”
There most certainly is. If one side is worse than the other, voting for the one that does less harm reduces (but doesn’t eliminate or fix) the harm being done.
I’m not saying it’s a solution, it’s definitely a bandage on a bleeding wound, but a bandage is better than letting it bleed out.
can you imagine anything that would cause you to not vote for the democrats? If full throated support for genocide isn’t a bridge too far, I have to wonder if you have any absolute principles at all.
If the Democrats implemented policies that would cause greater overall harm than the Republicans, then I would vote the other direction, but that would imply a total switch in partisan policies. (for an example of some policies I support to give you a general idea of what I consider to be harm, I’m a socialist, utilitarian, I believe all lives have equal value, I’m pro-abortion, anti-fascist, I hope you get the gist.)
Voting for the greater evil never gives you a beneficial edge. Voting for nobody when the greater evil benefits from that won’t give you a higher likelihood of implementing positive policy in the future.
I absolutely don’t support the Democrat’s endorsement of a genocide, but acting as if they’re the only ones doing it is silly. Trump is very clearly even more genocidal, and would not only implement even worse policy with regard to the Palestinian people, but would also do numerous other genocidal acts here, and in other locations abroad.
Statistically speaking, the only thing that would give the genocide a higher likelihood of ending, when the only two possibilities in this election are Democrats or Republicans, is the Democrats, because they will likely do the least amount of genocide by comparison. If we want any hope of actually stopping the genocide, we first want the most sympathetic party to that idea in power.
But of course, if you don’t believe harm reduction as a concept even exists, then I wouldn’t expect this argument to convince you. It’s fine if you aren’t though. You’re absolutely entitled to your own opinion, however wrong I may think it to be.
It’s not that I don’t believe in harm reduction as a concept, I just think it is cynically misapplied to genocide. There is no reducing the harm of genocide. There is zero reason to think that the democrats won’t see it through to its conclusion.
Liberals before they vote: I need to vote, any action to save democracy must be taken
Liberals after they vote: Welp time to do nothing for the next four years, also if you disagree with the Democrat president you’re a threat to democracy and you hate freedom :3
Remember to never question why such an orphan crushing trolley exists!
Just pull the lever and vote blue!
It is questioned, the trolley is that first past the post system you hear people complain about.
But at the same time you don’t just let the trolley do the maximum amount of crushing before it can be shut down for good.
If democrats as a group broadly endorse the genocide of Palestinians, how can they still be taken seriously regarding issues like abortion (rights ended during Dem presidency) and BLM?
how can they still be taken seriously regarding issues like abortion (rights ended during Dem presidency)
By the supreme court not the president.
The 3 Dissenting votes were exclusively from Democrat appointed judges from the Clinton and Obama years.
BLM?
Republicans are just objectively more hostile to BLM than Democrats.
Why does this meme depict the saving of abortion rights by voting for Harris (again)?
What “objective” measure implies Democrats are less hostile to BLM?
Black Americans somehow live with equality, let alone dignity, in Democrat-run cities?
Blacks should see a widespread endorsement of genocide and conclude BLM is legitimate concern for establishment Democrats?
Why does this meme depict the saving of abortion rights by voting for Harris (again)?
Because the more Democratic presidental terms there are the more nominees can reach the supreme court to overturn. Roe was overturned precisely because Republicans played that game of getting more judges on the bench
Additionally more dems in power increases the chance of a legislative victory on the issue
What “objective” measure implies Democrats are less hostile to BLM?
Listen to any Republican ever talk about BLM or make policy against “critical race theory” or “woke”.
Black Americans somehow live with equality, let alone dignity, in Democrat-run cities?
Blacks should see a widespread endorsement of genocide and conclude BLM is legitimate concern for establishment Democrats?
Why ignore this?
That isn’t me ignoring your point.
One of the parties declared open hostilities towards blm/crt/“woke” including via legislation. All of which they use to denounce black rights or history in some way.
On that measure Democrats are less hostile and it’s an important one. You need to teach about the oppression to do anything about it
Remember to never question why such an orphan crushing trolley exists!
This is really the crux of every one of these arguments about Gaza-related voting decisions though.
The people saying vote Harris please because (see OP) are saying that because they consider the trolley as an unstoppable force. There is no spectrum of feasible action that involves stopping the trolley before it takes one of those two paths. There may be feasible action that involves getting rid of the trolley later, but not now.
The people saying ZOMG you are voting for genocide if you vote for Harris seem to be focused on the trolley and can’t believe we’re all worrying about lesser evils when the orphan crushing trolley is right fucking there.
I am not a member of this second group, but it seems to me that they think getting rid of the trolley before it takes one of those paths is possible. Or, they think destroying the trolley later necessarily involves sacrificing ALL those groups (on both tracks above) now.
Your framework believes all non-Palestinian-genocide issues would be fixed by pulling a lever.
If democrats as a group broadly endorse the genocide of Palestinians, how can they still be taken seriously regarding issues like abortion (rights ended during Dem presidency) and BLM?
Does it? Is “fixed” the only bar that matters, or is “better” not still valuable? What about simply “not actively getting worse”? Is there no value in taking the smallest of steps to keep things from getting actively worse, or even attempting to stop them from getting worse? Does that prevent you from taking bigger steps to work for a better world? Do you think unions, mass protests, and other means of systemic change will magically be easier under Hitler 2.0 than a Dem?
You’ve asked this other question like 4 times in this thread so far, you must really think it’s a gotcha.
Let’s imagine for a second that Harris and Trump are indistinguishable on the question of Gaza (they aren’t, but let’s pretend your fantasy reality exists for a moment). That would mean that any choice results in the same outcome. That makes that question a wash. Choosing to vote for Harris, Trump, or not vote all have the same outcome on that front. But what about the other issues that matter to people? Should we let abortion access get more difficult in the meantime? Should we let the party that doesn’t believe there are any issues with policing into power over the one that admits there’s an issue but hasn’t fixed it yet?
Your question is incredibly dumb, not only because you seem to think that something happening while X party is in power means that X party is responsible (someone never took a civics class and learned about SC appointments or the filibuster) but because it’s entirely possible for a party to be good on one issue and bad on another. The Dem establishment is wrong about Gaza, what the hell does that have to do with abortion? Why would they be bad on abortion and BLM just because they are bad on this issue?
I don’t want to blame you for a difference in physical abilities that may exist, but are you looking at the same meme as me?
A trolley problem format meme depicts the genocide of Palestinians on one track and the false equivalence of genocide to LGBT, BLM, and abortion on the other track.
What about simply “not actively getting worse”?
Who says it’s not getting worse? A fellow Harris supporter celebrating “history” in Kalamazoo, where the gap between black and white homeownership is at its worst level in 50 years?:
https://lemmy.world/post/21294216
Why would they be bad on abortion and BLM just because they are bad on this issue?
I should explain why Democrats who endorse a genocide of brown people might be bad on BLM??
A trolley problem format meme depicts the genocide of Palestinians on one track and the false equivalence of genocide to LGBT, BLM, and abortion on the other track.
It’s not a false equivalence, there is no equivalence argued for in the meme. It points out that genocide in Gaza will happen on either track, but only one of them will actively make things worse for other groups I care about also. It’s not calling them equivalent, in fact it’s arguing they are not equivalent which is why we have a moral obligation to keep It off the track with more people on it. At best, the outcome for Gaza is equivalent, but the outcome for others is not.
Who says it’s not getting worse?
Are you delusional enough to think that Trump and Harris will have identical outcomes for the other groups listed? Even if Harris doesn’t “fix” those issues, preventing them from getting worse is better than allowing them to get worse. No improvement on abortion access is objectively better than a national abortion ban or anything else Trump (or really, the Heritage Foundation) wants.
I should explain why Democrats who endorse a genocide of brown people might be bad on BLM??
Ah yes, because Harris isn’t as anti genocide as we want, it’s totally logical to assume she would be in favor of black people dying more at the hands of police. Yes, that totally follows. And definitely the best option to improve policing is to let Trump be in charge. He will totally not work to make things worse.
You believe Harris has somehow preserved abortion rights and that others are delusional?
Even if Harris doesn’t “fix” those issues, preventing them from getting worse is better than allowing them to get worse. No improvement on abortion access is objectively better
A person who made their career out of imprisoning mostly black and brown men should be somehow seen as strongly against “black people dying more at the hands of police”?
I love that you cut off the quote mid sentence, conveniently leaving out the part that would have answered your dumbass question. No improvement to abortion access is objectively better than working to make things worse. If those are the only two options, we all have a moral obligation to keep things from getting worse.
You’re the one who implied it was the Dems fault because it happened while they were in power. Harris isn’t president and so couldn’t have done anything either way for abortion. But she certainly hasn’t made them worse and is not in favor of making abortion access more difficult. Trump, on the other hand, will actively work to make them worse.
I’m sorry, what is Harris’ stated position in BLM vs Trump’s? Which one of them said “please don’t be too nice” to them while talking to cops about suspects? Which one of them sent DHS to black-bag protestors during BLM again?
If only we could do more than one thing at once. Like pull the lever for blue because it is incredibly easy but also work on the task of getting rid of the trolley.
Do the easy thing first, leave the hard thing for tomorrow (never).
The hard thing gets even harder if we don’t do the easy thing.
If you believe mindlessly endorsing genocide is the easy thing, we have little in common.
If democrats as a group broadly endorse the genocide of Palestinians, how can they still be taken seriously regarding issues like abortion (rights ended during Dem presidency) and BLM?
If you don’t believe that strategic voting is critical to achieving what are inherently long term goals, then we have little in common.
we have little in common
Yes, I did say that.
Democrats nominating a war monger was a sign of high minded strategy?
- her position wrt Israel and Palestine wasn’t clear when she was nominated (though I don’t think it was all that hard to anticipate, but here we are); (2) the upcoming vote isn’t for her nomination to the democratic ticket, is it?
No one is saying they don’t wish the practical reality in which we live was better, but we are looking at two realistic choices right now. One choice will not only greatly worsen the situation and almost undoubtedly lead to more suffering and death in the Levant, it is also quite literally the highly preferred choice by Netanyahu. The other has in the past, before soliciting as many US votes as possible, at least displayed a willingness to criticize the Israeli government and modulate US policies regarding it. So I dunno what to tell you. At the end of the day, I’m pro-Palestinians not being murdered, and could give a fuck about signaling on social media, so I make practical choices to facilitate my as-many-Palestinians-as-possible-not-being-murdered preference. Maybe you don’t have that in common with me.
It sounds like you believe most people who identify as Democrats are actively rooting for the horrifyingly high number of Palestinian deaths, in the tens of thousands, to progress to the millions. Is that an accurate description of your viewpoint? If so, are there some key things that made you start believing that?
Just for criticizing Harris, her supporters have called for me to be put in a concentration camp. What makes you believe Democrats have no capacity for fascism?
I believe all humans, Democrats included, have capacity for fascism.
Do you believe most Democrats are actively rooting for most of the millions of Palestinians to be killed?
Congrats, you’ve intentionally missed the point. Thanks for trying though.
Not everyone has the capacity to engage with hard questions.
Not that you tried anyway.
Not that you tried anyway.
Bullshit.
If you squeeze your eyes shut tight enough, the trolley will just disappear
No need to squeeze your eyes to watch Palestinians just disappear right?
And your solution is… to let the trolley roll over them anyway while feeling morally superior. Unless you have some plan of removing the trolley before January, you are choosing to let it crush them anyway. Choosing to not vote or pull the lever is also a choice that you will have to live with and one that requires moral justification.
Not everyone is capable of comprehending a nuanced and complex solution.
You offer no evidence of any capacity to question the contrivance of a despicable “problem.”
“I don’t have any moral responsibility because I believe the trolley shouldn’t exist in the first place.” Totally nuanced and not completely missing the point of the analogy at all. If only everyone knew we could just magically make the trolley disappear we could have skipped over the decades of philosophy written about the trolley problem because the solution is so easy!
I mean you said those words, no need to beat yourself up cause you have a little straw on your face.
That’s what it sounds like you are saying. If that’s not it, why didn’t you tell your solution?
What are you, 5? “I know you are but what am I?”
