- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmit.online
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmit.online
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Wasn’t WhatsApp essentially built from Signal’s base protocol anyway? Why use the meta clone when the original is right there?
No. WhatsApp came first, but later adopted Signal’s key exchange and encryption. WhatsApp was an independent company for years and had rejected several acquisition offers, but $19 billion is a big number.
One of WhatsApp’s founders is now chairman of the Signal Foundation and a major financial backer of the project.
Thanks!
Compare with Zangi Private Messenger. Yes, every country who has jurisdiction has access. Just ask yourself, which gov do I trust more with my private chats?
There are many such apps. The page links to EFF one which ranked some messaging apps and included stuff like Threema (though good luck getting anyone to use it because it’s a paid version). Then, there is Briar, available on F Droid as well, which runs on a decentralised model but I don’t think I know anyone IRL who has even heard of it.
Telegram, I think, Atleast in my country is the second most popular thing behind WhatsApp but in it’s default state, it’s less secure and one needs to enable e2e encryption(read : secret chats).
I am willing to move to almost any service ( I mean, I still use IRC, so…) but the main point is would anyone I know be on them?
Signal used to be the best answer to this conundrum, since it would use its own internal protocols if it could or fall back to SMS if it couldn’t, unfortunately they decided to drop SMS support a few years ago, citing users that sent sensitive information not realizing they were using SMS (that always felt kinda flimsy). I really disliked this change, because it raised the difficulty of adoption, from just getting people to replace their default app with Signal to making them manage multiple apps.
Now though, you basically need to advocate socially for the change you want to see in the world. Anecdotally, I started using Signal when they still supported SMS to talk with 1 friend group, and eventually convinced most of my closest family groups to also use it, many after SMS support was dropped. Apart from 1 tech illiterate elderly couple and 1 extended family member, I haven’t received any personal (non-company related) text messages in like 5 months.
The sad truth is that the majority of people are treating WhatsApp exactly as a social network. It is there to send memes and stickers. See what others are up to without having to interact. Then mindlessly scroll through reels. Ocassionally purchase something via chat with a corporate bot.
If you quickly uninstall it because you don’t know anyone using it sounds like you’re part of the problem, if someone you know installs it to try it out that’s one less person they see as well. Personally I got the vast majority of my friend group to move to it years ago by just saying like “hey Facebook sucks we should move to signal”. If you don’t want to do that should at least leave it installed it’s not like it’s taking up much space
Quickly as in I had it for multiple months. Just like I did with Threema and Briar and XMPP apps and what not. Nobody ever showed up. There was a time when I was carrying more chat apps than folks I used to chat with
There is technically one phonebook contact of mine on Signal but he primarily uses Telegram as primary chat thingy.
It then occurred to me that IRL most folks don’t care about chat apps. They care about chatting. The most I have seen folks are on Whatsapp, Telegram and Snapchat (last of which is really bad).
Signal has been a good option because you can get “normal” people to use it, which hasn’t been true for many of the alternatives (except Telegram, but that’s a mess).
The problem is that it was easier to get people to move to Telegram since it had an abundance of features compared to WhatsApp which was compelling for the average person that doesn’t care about encryption. Signal doesn’t have any of these features that make it enticing for the person.
A few friends of mine use Threema, because they care about privacy and are more than happy to pay to have it. Signal comes third, behind Telegram, even.
It’s ethical because it runs on donations and has a non-profit business model.
Meta likely spends at least $1 billion a year running WhatsApp.
Please donate to Signal if you use it.
How about Delta Chat? At least as secure as Signal, open source, and decentralized.
telegram much better
I features, yes. By 10 miles.
Privacy? It isn’t driving anymore at this point.
any proofs?
To get encryption one must start a “secret chat”. It’s an opt-in! Regular users will not even know the option exists, that’s how well hidden it is.
Regular chats? Plainly readable on the server.
The main differences between a regular chat and a secret chat in Telegram, from a security standpoint, are:
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End-to-End Encryption • Regular Chat: Messages are encrypted client-server-server-client, meaning Telegram servers can technically access the content. • Secret Chat: Messages are end-to-end encrypted, so only you and the recipient can read them. Not even Telegram can decrypt them.
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Cloud Storage • Regular Chat: Messages are stored in the cloud. You can access them from any device logged into your Telegram account. • Secret Chat: Messages are device-specific and not stored in the cloud. They can only be read on the devices where the secret chat was initiated.
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Self-Destruct Timer • Regular Chat: No self-destruct functionality. • Secret Chat: You can set a self-destruct timer for messages after they’re read.
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Forwarding • Regular Chat: Messages can be freely forwarded. • Secret Chat: Messages cannot be forwarded.
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Screenshots • Regular Chat: Screenshots are not restricted or notified. • Secret Chat: Telegram tries to prevent or notify about screenshots (depends on the OS).
Summary:
Use secret chats if you need maximum privacy, as they’re more secure and don’t rely on Telegram’s servers to store message content. However, they’re less convenient because you lose cloud sync and multi-device support.
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When they dropped sms support I was no longer able to convince people to migrate to signal.
Before I could make the argument that you need one sms app anyway so that app might just as well be Signal instead of the one that comes preloaded with your phone. That way people would gradually get more and more secure messaging as time went on. When sms support was dropped, Signal could not replace an existing app and adding another messing app is much less appealing than replacing one.
signal requires a phone number and won’t even allow you to send sms to those that aren’t on signal.
its better, but still not great.
It used to function as a fallback SMS/MMS messenger (like how iMessage does) but when Google started moving to convert Android from SMS/MMS to RCS Signal made the hard decision to cut the fallback functionality rather than follow Google’s new framework.
I personally hope once the dust settles Signal designs a RCS engine and restores the fallback functionality.
Yeah killing the sms function was basically a deal breaker for me, no matter how much I tried I could only get three people to use Signal, the rest were all sms. When the sms feature was removed 2 of the 3 dropped Signal completely, so now the only person I know who still uses it is my mom and even she still flips back and forth between Signal and Google messages when texting me.
I still have Signal on my phone and suggest it people when they ask how to contact me, but everyone just wants to text my phone number.
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if they need my phone number to have an account anyway, they can offer both.
i dont need more apps that do the same thing. i need less.
It’s arguably a very bad idea for a secure messenger to also provide an SMS interface, since those are basically cleartext
exactly. so I’m wondering what the purpose is for its need.
What? You use a secure messenger to send secure messages. It doesn’t make sense for a secure messenger to offer sending insecure messages (SMS).
Edit: oh, you’re probably referring to why it requires a phone number. This seems to be due to abuse/spam prevention, as otherwise creating new accounts to spam people with is basically free.
using the phone number is still a pretty unnecessary risk, imho.
there’s no real need for it any longer.
Do you have a better approach to prevent spam in mind? Without a barrier of entry it becomes a serious issue.
Don’t ask me for a phone number and I’ll use it.
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If you’re reading this comment, I posted it from proton vpn
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Data is 100% the enemy and you’re right, lemmy would be moronic to put that roadblock in place
Duck duck Go VPN connection here
You’re using the wrong lemmy server then, no problem with mine
It doesn’t matter if you hide the number; at some point they deanonymized you when you signed up.
Want to be a dick about “hoops”? Get a number that isn’t traceable. It can be done, but it’s tough. I doubt its possible in the countries that really need anonymity of association.
When did WhatsApp start allowing signups without a phone number?
No clue. Never even tried to use it since it’s a Meta product. I was referring to Signal’s phone # requirement being a non-starter.
So what do you use now?
Matrix
I use Element.
I use both and have been happy with both, but note that Element / Matrix have recently announced the intent to add paid service tiers.
Fair enough, servers cost, you can self host it too…
Remeber, If it’s “free”, you are the product.
i dont use whatsapp that much anyways
A truly ethical replacement would not need a phone number
And would have FOSS implementations of reference server & client + an openly specified protocol.
Like Matrix.
Matrix still has it’s problems. All the meta data is still saved on every server permanently.
There is still space to improve from there.
And it would have as much spam as email.
After Trump was elected and inaugurated, Signal has finally been gaining some steam here in the Netherlands.
Its still an American company, so its not ideal. But it’s still significantly better better than letting Facebook have control over the most commonly used chat app.
WhatsApp needs to go and Signal is the most likely way in which we can achieve that. We can worry about the American elephant in the room later.
There is threema, a Swiss messenger that gained some popularity earlier since they had end to end encryption before whatsapp.
Unfortunately the source code is not open (even though they do get annual audits with public reports), and the client costs 3 EUR or something (once).
Until Facebook buys them like they did with WhatsApp…?
Yeah, but Threema has basically no momentum behind it at all at this point.
I’m putting my social capital behind the option that currently stands the most chance of beating out WhatsappThreema has a pretty big momentum in some countries.
Then by all means keep that momentum going.
I’m just looking at this from a Dutch perspective, where Signal is seeing by far the most growth.You can help making it stronger. That’s what I did in Germany: if people want to contact me, I usually give them my Threema ID first, everything else comes later.
But my goal is not to move to Threema, my goal is to move away from Whatsapp.
Signal fits the bill while expending far less social capital convincing people to use it.
Which?
Switzerland. ;-)
FYI, while Threema front-end clients (apps) are open-source (and offer reproducible builds, which is surprisingly uncommon in open-source land), the server component, though supposedly audited, remains closed-source.
That’s just the client, the server architecture is what really matters.
They also offer Threema Libre on F-Droid for all us folks who degoogled their phone
And Switzerlands records in terms of privacy sadly is far worse than most people think - even with the last attack being repelled.
Matrix (preferably on a non-matrix.org instance) currently is the preferable non US and privacy friendly way.
I don’t know - this hype about Matrix reminds me of XMPP which was similarly popular a decade ago. Today, nobody even remembers it anymore.
Which hype? Matrix as a protocol is used for a decade now, especially by various big governments (French, Luxembourg and German governmental messenger, various German states, German and Polish armed forces, German healthcare messenger, various smaller projects in Latin America), is bridgeable (I currently have it bridged to Whatsapp and Signal amongst others) but I really don’t see a hype - on the contrary I only see people predicting me the immediate apocalypse of Matrix for 5 years now, currently due to matrix.org (one of a hundred instances) introducing a premium account model for the most cost intensive (heavily media sharing)users. (See below for that).
Pepperidge farm remembers, and so do I. Lots of people I know use XMPP (Cheogram, Dino, etc).
Sadly many still don’t want to switch. My most active chats are in signal now but the large majority of chats are still on whatsapp
If you leave WhatsApp, your chats will usually follow.
Not all of them.
I have a non-official chat group with some colleagues, and a chat group for the neighbourhood that are not likely moving just because I am refusing to use Whatsapp. It would just result in me missing out on those chat groups.
Currently I just have both installed, and that is also how I try to convince people to install and try out Signal.
Signal is based in America but it’s a non profit organization, not a company. Important difference
But being based in the United States it is still subject to American laws, and that comes with the risk of potential American spying and embargoes. Software from any American entity (be it coorporation or non-profit) comes with that risk.
America is not a monolith. Signal’s developers are very much aware of the risks of operating there and probably already have several escape plans given recent developments. I also think five-eyes probably has access but getting it might be computationally expensive.
For now anyways lol
What does this mean
When you’ve been around a while, you begin to notice certain trends.
This particular trend being the one where the young, bright, ethical start-up turns into the sort of monster they originally rallied against, ensh*ttifying their product and spouting all the same reasons for it.
Signal is relatively young, bright and ethical. The cynic says “for now”.
Signal is very actively and directly working to pioneer a new financial model for long term software business stability that does not rely on surveillance capitalism. Your experience with young companies enshittifying into monsters is the natural cycle for the surveillance economy, and if Signal does eventually go that way it will be a profound disappointment, but I expect the foundation would rather die first. Check out this interview from last year with the president of the Signal Foundation for more depth on that.
That’s pretty much the only advantage of getting old.
That’s a risk, and a reason I’d like to see something federated succeed in this space. Unfortunately neither Matrix nor XMPP has managed to achieve quite the level of UX necessary for mainstream adoption, nor have the average person’s tech skills and comfort level improved.
Signal’s status as a well-funded nonprofit gives me hope that the current situation is reasonably stable.
Several XMPP clients look perfectly fine
I can’t call ethical an app that relies on Electron.
Weird goalpost but Ok
I think it is more of a hill than a goalpost.
I wish I could do this, but trying to convince people to ditch an app they’ve never had problems with and where they all have their family, friends, work groups and school groups already mashed together, how do you convince them? Its not even about me convincing my friends or family, its about everyone else doing the same and when everyone has so many contacts in WhatsApp, that number starts to snowball real quick. Its just not feasible to try and explain this to someone who literally doesn’t care. I mean even though I myself know what Meta is and how Zuck is complete asshole, I still can’t switch off of WhatsApp because nobody I know is on Signal and I’d just be alone there. What’s the point? WhatsApp is pretty much the first app anyone installs on their phone (regardless of platform), they’re not gonna switch now.
Just ditch WhatsApp. Don’t give in to social pressure to install malware on your phone
The problem is there’s no one on signal that I want to talk to. So “just ditch the app” isn’t actually helpful.
Just need to move everyone. Not that hard honestly, if you are around smart people
" It’s not that hard really all you have to do is be around people who already want to move over". Yeah thanks for that advice.
I have a very similar strategy to being rich, step one is to be rich already. Simplicity itself.
Why are you friend with stupid people?
Why are you being intentionally disingenuous?
I will say it again just so it’s stated.
People are not going to move to another service unless they can obviously see the benefit in moving to that service. People who are not technically inclined (that doesn’t mean stupid) are not going to see the benefit.Don’t be rude about people you don’t know anything about. Don’t insult their intelligence just because they’re not as interested in a very niche area of technology as you are.
spoiler
Why are you friend with stupid people?
Also note that if you are going to be rude about people you know nothing about, you had better check your grammar
There’s nobody on Signal, that’s the problem. If I want to miss out on all of my group conversations, work conversations, messages between myself and others, then yeah, I can switch. But if I want to receive any messages at all, I have to keep WhatsApp installed.
Well, just an anecdote:
I simply deleted my WhatsApp and moved to signal. Just did it.
People installed the app, at least the ones that cared about staying in touch. Which was most everyone I cared about staying in touch with. A few of my friend groups also moved the group chat to signal, though all of them do have other ones with the people who didn’t care enough to move too, but I hear it isn’t that big a deal, they had multiple groups before and will have in future, doesn’t really feel like any extra hassle they say.
It’s been fine. No problems. I’ve had more trouble trying to explain to my extended family why I’m no longer posting on instagram. Those I never had in WhatsApp either back in the day, so they “stayed in touch” by watching my pictures I suppose. But I just consistently tell people they can reach me always via signal or plain old sms.
I guess the biggest thing to be scared about would be fomo for most, but I don’t really care enough, I’ve got so much going on already that it’s more of a blessing that I don’t have to be involved in every conversation or meme sharing or whatever.
It really gets so easy after simply switching. Just do it and that’s that. The people worth anything come with you, it’s just another app and another group chat or personal chat. Most already have discord and the meta messenger whatever its name is these days anyway. I know zero people with only one messenger/chat app and unsplintered groups across them. It’s not a big chore, and if it is, there’s always sms.
Yep. I know the details. I’m tech savvy enough, but I use what my contacts use, and I’m not leaving WhatsApp. Same goes for youtube. The content I consume is there. There is no suitable alternative until the content creators switch. It’s not really about the technology at all.
WhatsApp is pretty much the first app anyone installs on their phone
Is this really the case?
Maybe it’s a regional thing. I’m in the northeast US, and nearly everyone I know uses Facebook Messenger as their main form of communication, even people who don’t touch Facebook at all. I hate Messenger for the same reasons that people hate WhatsApp, but I still have to use it because my entire social circle does. If I want to message someone outside Messenger without giving my phone number out, I use my Google Voice number.
I’ve only ever used WhatsApp to talk to work contacts overseas, and I’ve only ever used Signal to talk to paranoid drug dealers, which is a use case that’s mostly been replaced by Telegram now.
Outside of North America, most other countries’ use WhatsApp as a choice for personal and business uses is WhatsApp. Rest are mostly dominated by Facebook messenger. Excluding China which has WeChat domestically.
How Meta was ever allowed to buy WhatsApp without triggering anti-trust laws is beyond me.
Many of my European and South American friends are having a hard time because that’s where all their families and friends back home are, and it’s hard to get them to use something new, especially the older folks.
