Speaking of TED Talks, I’m not reading all of that.
But nobody is talking about running a service. Sure, someone might open up Anime CCG Pocket Collection 2045 Big Continuation Service, run like the original even with support staff. But maybe I’m fine with Joe’s ACPC2045 server, because he’s my mate and we just want to goof around.
There are plenty of fan projects out there that run entire big services for their games. Keeping MMOs alive but also entirely new services based on stuff like Minecraft.
If ACPC2045 wants to make this into an expensive complicated (for them and us) endeavour, let them. There will be plenty of other games that will handle the new requirements with grace because they are not incompetent. Look how quickly Ubisoft was able to turn around with The Crew 2.
Understandable. You can ignore the big blurb (or go watch Chet’s much better version, which is also half an hour, but still). The point is that’s just me rattling off the top of my head all the complications I can think of for a modern game.
The thing is yes, you are talking about running a service. Because that’s what a bunch of these games are. That’s what The Crew was, at least if you ask Ubisoft.
And if you’re regulating this issue you can’t say “let them do the complicated thing we can’t salvage”. Everybody is going to have to comply with the requirements, big and small.
So it’s one thing to carve out exceptions for community servers for an MMO, it’s another to set requirements on sunsetting server-based games by law (Minecraft doesn’t count, it doesn’t have matchmaking and was always local-hosted).
The world you’re imagining is a world where Ubisoft still has The Crew 2 and Activision still has WoW, but Lethal Company or Among Us maybe don’t get made. Because if the requirements for both are the same the percentage of their budget compliance takes is massively different.
That’s the problem with this on paper, right? You can’t target just one scenario that pissed you off. Laws are for everybody. You need to find a solution where you define your terms well enough to ensure that a) you get the outcome you want from the big boys, and b) the small fry and the edge cases don’t get tossed with the bathwater.
Yeah, but see, my mate Joe, he just doesn’t run the sign up page or authentication or the matchmaking or the seasonal DLC or the voice chat or the community forums.
He just enters some stuff by hand into the Oracle DB and off we go.
I’m serious. Big corporations tend to overcomplicate this stuff all the time. Especially because they tend to run several components as one. But when you break it down each one is not that complicated. I’ve done that. As my job. Saying it’s not feasible is a massive strawman.
Because as always, if they can do it so can we. This will never change.
But again, it’s not just a technical issue. It’s cost and functionality and compliance and legal requirements, too.
Also, eff no, it IS complicated. And expensive. You’re handwaving a ton of stuff there, it’s not just some Oracle DB.
And again, you’re not saying “can we do it”, you’re saying “can we make it mandatory to do it for everything?”
At this point you have to go back to the big blurb you didn’t read or the video you didn’t watch. It’s the specifics of what you need to do. At scale. For every live game, so like 80% of the mobile industry, a decent chunk of console and PC.
And each of those has a litany of technical, legal and financial requirements, each different from each other, by design.
You can’t just write into a law that it needs to happen and have it magically materialize. That’s not how this is going to work, even if the inititative succeeded.
I’m currently watching the video and he is approaching this as if some company would continue complete support with every functionality still available without any interruption. His idea of the “simplest matchmaking” are freaking lobby codes. He can’t even fathom a future without Steam.
For him almost everything involves accounts and big companies and legal entities and central authorities. Stuff you do not need. Never ever. He is caught up on self made problems.
If you put into law that a game has to remain playable developers will figure it out. Either they are stupid and tie everything to central unchangeable entities or they will add a config file where you enter an IP address and call it a day. Capitalism will find the cheapest way to comply.
Well, no, he specifically considers a future without Steam and acknowledges ongoing support for the game is dependent on Steam for matchmaking.
Because matchmaking is a central service.
And the reason he wants to keep all these dumb features nobody wants like matchmaking and cross-play and… you know, unlockables, is that he sold the game with them and doesn’t want to take them away from players when they continue to support the game as a community.
I don’t know, that seems reasonable to me.
The story he’s telling you is precisely “developers figuring it out”. Of course he’d want to still have cross play. Of course he still wants matchmaking. He made the game, that’s the point.
And his game is pretty easy to fix, all things considered. It’s a Left4Dead-like, you only need a handful of people in a session that can run over P2P. Expand what he’s describing to peristent worlds with hundreds of people, seamless matchmaking and microtransactions and you have a very complex web to tangle. A web that, by definition, you can’t afford. Because if it made money you wouldn’t be taking it down.
And again, neither Faliszek nor me are saying we don’t want games preserved. I’m saying that wishing really hard for games to keep working doesn’t make them keep working. You HAVE to fix all the legal and technical issues. That’s the job.
That’s continued support. Not EOL. If continued support is his way to EOL his game that is of course his right. But also impossible to guarantee, precisely because of the reasons he listed. Thus an idiotic impossible stance to uphold.
No, that’s the migration to EoL. He talks through the difference in very articulate ways. Specifically, it’s the transition from those features being centralized to them being handled without their support. So the game goes from a central server to peer-to-peer, matchmaking goes from their service to the Steam API for it and so on.
That’s what end of life looks like if you need to keep the game running, The game won’t run without matchmaking, so you need a matchmaking solution. They went with this. They could have gone with a server browser. One thing wouldn’t necessarily be less work than the other, the idea is they had to reimplement that chunk of the game in a way the community could maintain.
If you just put the game out and don’t enable some solution for matchmaking then there’s no matchmaking and you can only play by yourself.
If you’re frustrated that this is done with such complications imagine how it feels for the people doing this on the way to a certain layoff or bankrupcy. Which is the whole point people are trying to impress here.
Speaking of TED Talks, I’m not reading all of that.
But nobody is talking about running a service. Sure, someone might open up Anime CCG Pocket Collection 2045 Big Continuation Service, run like the original even with support staff. But maybe I’m fine with Joe’s ACPC2045 server, because he’s my mate and we just want to goof around.
There are plenty of fan projects out there that run entire big services for their games. Keeping MMOs alive but also entirely new services based on stuff like Minecraft.
If ACPC2045 wants to make this into an expensive complicated (for them and us) endeavour, let them. There will be plenty of other games that will handle the new requirements with grace because they are not incompetent. Look how quickly Ubisoft was able to turn around with The Crew 2.
Understandable. You can ignore the big blurb (or go watch Chet’s much better version, which is also half an hour, but still). The point is that’s just me rattling off the top of my head all the complications I can think of for a modern game.
The thing is yes, you are talking about running a service. Because that’s what a bunch of these games are. That’s what The Crew was, at least if you ask Ubisoft.
And if you’re regulating this issue you can’t say “let them do the complicated thing we can’t salvage”. Everybody is going to have to comply with the requirements, big and small.
So it’s one thing to carve out exceptions for community servers for an MMO, it’s another to set requirements on sunsetting server-based games by law (Minecraft doesn’t count, it doesn’t have matchmaking and was always local-hosted).
The world you’re imagining is a world where Ubisoft still has The Crew 2 and Activision still has WoW, but Lethal Company or Among Us maybe don’t get made. Because if the requirements for both are the same the percentage of their budget compliance takes is massively different.
That’s the problem with this on paper, right? You can’t target just one scenario that pissed you off. Laws are for everybody. You need to find a solution where you define your terms well enough to ensure that a) you get the outcome you want from the big boys, and b) the small fry and the edge cases don’t get tossed with the bathwater.
Yeah, but see, my mate Joe, he just doesn’t run the sign up page or authentication or the matchmaking or the seasonal DLC or the voice chat or the community forums.
He just enters some stuff by hand into the Oracle DB and off we go.
I’m serious. Big corporations tend to overcomplicate this stuff all the time. Especially because they tend to run several components as one. But when you break it down each one is not that complicated. I’ve done that. As my job. Saying it’s not feasible is a massive strawman.
Because as always, if they can do it so can we. This will never change.
But again, it’s not just a technical issue. It’s cost and functionality and compliance and legal requirements, too.
Also, eff no, it IS complicated. And expensive. You’re handwaving a ton of stuff there, it’s not just some Oracle DB.
And again, you’re not saying “can we do it”, you’re saying “can we make it mandatory to do it for everything?”
At this point you have to go back to the big blurb you didn’t read or the video you didn’t watch. It’s the specifics of what you need to do. At scale. For every live game, so like 80% of the mobile industry, a decent chunk of console and PC.
And each of those has a litany of technical, legal and financial requirements, each different from each other, by design.
You can’t just write into a law that it needs to happen and have it magically materialize. That’s not how this is going to work, even if the inititative succeeded.
I’m currently watching the video and he is approaching this as if some company would continue complete support with every functionality still available without any interruption. His idea of the “simplest matchmaking” are freaking lobby codes. He can’t even fathom a future without Steam.
For him almost everything involves accounts and big companies and legal entities and central authorities. Stuff you do not need. Never ever. He is caught up on self made problems.
If you put into law that a game has to remain playable developers will figure it out. Either they are stupid and tie everything to central unchangeable entities or they will add a config file where you enter an IP address and call it a day. Capitalism will find the cheapest way to comply.
Well, no, he specifically considers a future without Steam and acknowledges ongoing support for the game is dependent on Steam for matchmaking.
Because matchmaking is a central service.
And the reason he wants to keep all these dumb features nobody wants like matchmaking and cross-play and… you know, unlockables, is that he sold the game with them and doesn’t want to take them away from players when they continue to support the game as a community.
I don’t know, that seems reasonable to me.
The story he’s telling you is precisely “developers figuring it out”. Of course he’d want to still have cross play. Of course he still wants matchmaking. He made the game, that’s the point.
And his game is pretty easy to fix, all things considered. It’s a Left4Dead-like, you only need a handful of people in a session that can run over P2P. Expand what he’s describing to peristent worlds with hundreds of people, seamless matchmaking and microtransactions and you have a very complex web to tangle. A web that, by definition, you can’t afford. Because if it made money you wouldn’t be taking it down.
And again, neither Faliszek nor me are saying we don’t want games preserved. I’m saying that wishing really hard for games to keep working doesn’t make them keep working. You HAVE to fix all the legal and technical issues. That’s the job.
That’s continued support. Not EOL. If continued support is his way to EOL his game that is of course his right. But also impossible to guarantee, precisely because of the reasons he listed. Thus an
idioticimpossible stance to uphold.No, that’s the migration to EoL. He talks through the difference in very articulate ways. Specifically, it’s the transition from those features being centralized to them being handled without their support. So the game goes from a central server to peer-to-peer, matchmaking goes from their service to the Steam API for it and so on.
That’s what end of life looks like if you need to keep the game running, The game won’t run without matchmaking, so you need a matchmaking solution. They went with this. They could have gone with a server browser. One thing wouldn’t necessarily be less work than the other, the idea is they had to reimplement that chunk of the game in a way the community could maintain.
If you just put the game out and don’t enable some solution for matchmaking then there’s no matchmaking and you can only play by yourself.
If you’re frustrated that this is done with such complications imagine how it feels for the people doing this on the way to a certain layoff or bankrupcy. Which is the whole point people are trying to impress here.
As long as a corporate entity is providing service the game is not EOL and beyond SKG.