- cross-posted to:
- usa@midwest.social
- news@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- usa@midwest.social
- news@lemmy.world
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I like this! It’s a good thing for the EU to decouple from the US. The EU’s military budget is definitely goof enough, just very badly managed. This will push the EU to get its shit together and achieve proper autonomy. Only then it’ll be able to enter international agreements on equal footing with other superpowers and not have it be a serfdom relationship in exchange for defence
Yeah and what the fuck we gonna do without Raytheon/LockMart/Boeing weaponry etc? Munition?
That’s the point, figure out a way to stop relying on them. It’d have been better if it weren’t necessary to have a wake-up call like this, but if that’s what it takes to achieve that result, I’m okay with it
Yeah but no need to withdraw now, that’s like I agreed to teach you to swim but go head first in deep waters with no safeguard whatsoever
Europe is not decoupling.
deleted by creator
I’m just some guy that doesn’t like Europe being reliant on the US and I am also against Russia
Look how stupid your country is, to hand the death on NATO to Putin because you’re on his side.
Thanks for the war and death and heat, Americans.
Fuck you.
We’re pretty pissed off at ourselves right now too. I’m sorry things got this far and wish I could offer more than fear and frustration…
Then DO SOMETHING…
Are you waiting for someone else to save you?
They just had the largest protest in their history, have a handful of cities under military intervention to stop the protests, and are close to elect somebody that promises to fight against the federal government as mayor of their largest city.
What exactly do you expect them to do?
I keep seeing this sentiment and I don’t understand it. Are you speaking purely out of anger and ignorance? The recent No Kings protest was either the third or first largest protest in the history of the U.S.A. and some communities have literally been running ICE gestapo out of their towns.
The Christian Conservative minority have gridlocked the American government, silently stacked the judicial system in their favor, and partnered with the American oligarchy to bankroll fascists and create the most pervasive, effective, and enduring propaganda machines ever seen (that’s already worked its way into Australia and had been finding footholds in Europe).
The idea than Americans aren’t doing anything about this or that there could ever possibly be a single unified movement that magically fixes “the issue” is incoherently reductive and impractical. If I see a comrade struggling for air I don’t yell at them to just breathe. I help them remove the pig standing on their neck. What are YOU doing to lend a hand or show lost comrades that there’s still hope?
I’d love to help, but the USA is currently TRYING TO ANNEX MY COUNTRY.
Do you hear yourself?
It definitely isn’t.
It really sounds like you cowards are holding REALLY tightly to the same talking points- so fucking desperate not to face your inadequacy and complete lack of spine. It’s gross, honestly.
Guess what, you’re not “one of the good ones.”
My word Brotha… just breathe. I know you darn good well if you really, really look deep in the center of it all. I mean like seriously look deep, you and I know who really is at fault. Is it really the common folks and citizens of America? Is it really those individuals who make barely enough to get a meal on their desk, because most of the paycheck goes to rent, house payments, bills and the unnecessary bs insurances? Bro the inflation is so bad that it’s not us. It’s the elites with insane amount of wealth. Plus most of us hate every part of the leadership that runs this country. How is it the common folk’s fault when you know damn good and well that it’s the crazy orange men. And I guess that justifies my statement in saying that, “Guess what bro, you are not the good ones either.”
Coward.
One word response, was all I needed. My precise exact sentiment.
Your comment makes no sense and helps no one.
Thanks for the war and death and heat, Americans.
Casting the first stone from paradise, eh?
Americans have been burning paradise. Sit yout ass down and be quiet.
I mean, not to absolve America of anything, but it’s not like the rest of the world hasn’t been complicit in burning paradise either.
The death of NATO is a good fucking thing. No more US military bases in the EU, no more forced expenditure of civil budget in weapons causing austerity, no more bombing of Libya and Yugoslavia, no more US influence in European politics. If you’re European you should salivate at the thought of NATO ending.
The end of NATO doesn’t mean any of that. We have bases in non-NATO countries too, so obviously that is nit because if NATO. It does mean Russia has almost free reign to invade more countries. If Russia can cause issues without being part of an alliance like NATO, why do you think the US can’t when it’s not part of NATO?
First of all, the country currently forcing my country to cut expenditure in healthcare and to put it into military is the US, not Russia. And the country funding and arming the most flagrant example of genocide in the 21st century is the US.
Second of all, Russia doesn’t have geopolitical reasons, nor the military/economic strength, to invade EU countries. And even if it did, the EU has nukes so you don’t need further military expenditure as deterrent.
Third, even if you forget all I’ve said above, the EU can still have a military alliance without the US, and it would be a much better thing.
First of all, the country currently forcing my country to cut expenditure in healthcare and to put it into military is the US, not Russia.
Wrong. There’s no requirement for spending as a part of NATO. There’s also no requirement for the US to do anything. The invasion of Ukraine by Russia is almost certainly the reason your country, whichever it is, is increasing military spending.
Second of all, Russia doesn’t have geopolitical reasons, nor the military/economic strength, to invade EU countries.
They have reasons. Some EU nations are former Soviet states. Just the “restore the former borders of the Soviet union” reason is reason enough, ignoring the resources or anything else. Do they have the strength? Why is that included here. Does it matter? It doesn’t have to be smart to happen.
And even if it did, the EU has nukes so you don’t need further military expenditure as deterrent.
I don’t know what you people who keep bringing up nukes think they’re for. You can’t use them. Using them will only ensure you lose, because everyone turns against you. They are only useful to deter other nuclear strikes, and also to deter nations from creating a last stand situation where you have already lost so there’s nothing to lose in using nukes. You can’t win a war with nukes.
Third, even if you forget all I’ve said above, the EU can still have a military alliance without the US, and it would be a much better thing.
Forget or dispute? You’re implying your logic is faultless. Anyway, sure. They can. They don’t though. I advocate that they do. I’d love to see the EU with its own defensive force. I don’t want them to be reliant on the US, like they currently are. However, that necessarily requires most EU nations to increase their military spending, which you’re apparently against. You want magic, not reality. You want all the benefits of military power without any of the costs. Sorry. That can’t happen.
There’s no requirement for spending as a part of NATO.
Not a strict requirement, but pressure to do so. Whose idea was it to raise to 5% again? The only president who rejected the idea, Pedro Sanchez from Spain, got threatened with tariffs if Spain doesn’t conform.
They have reasons. Some EU nations are former Soviet states. Just the “restore the former borders of the Soviet union” reason is reason enough
Russia has been pushing for closer political and economic ties with Europe for the past 30 years. Russia was promised that if they dismantled the communist project NATO would cease to expand eastward, and NATO kept expanding eastward regardless. Turns out NATO was never about defending Europe (because it never has), it was always about creating tensions between Russia and Europe because a continuous political alliance of industrialized nations that spans from Gibraltar to Bering would be too powerful for the US to control.
The invasion of Ukraine by Russia is almost certainly the reason your country, whichever it is, is increasing military spending.
The justification is the invasion of Ukraine. But as a European, the number of times our military has been used to defend Europe has been 0 since WW2, it’s only ever used to support US imperial ambitions, to bomb brown children, or to keep control over colonies in Africa. Europe deals so much fucking damage with its imperialism, that’s one of the biggest reasons I don’t want military expenditure. They tell us it’s to defend from “le evil Ruzzians” but 5 years later Europe will be bombing brown children with that money, mark my words. For fuck’s sake Europe can’t even stop supporting the genocide of Palestinians. How can you want Europe to spend more money in military instead of engaging in diplomacy and not antagonising Russia?
Do they have the strength? Why is that included here. Does it matter?
It does matter. If Europe already has the military strength to repel Russia, why do you want the extra expenditure in weapons?
They are only useful to deter other nuclear strikes,
Why wasn’t the Soviet Union or any of its satellite states invaded by the west since they got the nukes, then? The cold war was raging, and yet there was no incident of overt military conflict between eastern and western block. How so?
I’d love to see the EU with its own defensive force
If love to see the EU pushing for diplomacy and not antagonising the largest country in the world which happens to be right beyond its borders. I would line to see a European military alliance independent from the US but I wouldn’t like it spending 5% of the yearly budget at the cost of already starving healthcare, education and pensions. Denmark already approved to raise retirement to 70 fucking years old in order to pay for this, Finland is pushing to remove holidays from the calendar, and England already said that raising this budget will have effects on expenditure in social services. This is absolute bullshit.
We have the far right getting stronger and stronger due to the worsening living conditions of Europeans because of austerity policy and lack of intervention of things like salaries or rent prices. Cool, let’s increase military expenditure to 5% right before fucking LePen, AfD, Vox and their equivalents get to the governments, what could possibly go wrong? Remember my words: in 5 years time, the European money will be spent not in conflict against Russia, but in middle east / Africa. Supporting military expenditure of the west is absolutely crazy.
You want magic, not reality. You want all the benefits of military power without any of the costs
No, I dont want the benefits of military power because I’m not a warmongering European chauvinist like you, I want the benefits of diplomacy, of social spending, and of good relations with neighbouring counteies. I don’t want my fucking healthcare money to end up in the pockets of Rheinmetall in order to lobby my politicians to go to war. I’m an able-bodied male and I don’t want my country to send me to be cannon fodder in the name of European imperialism.
Alright, you’re just being a Russian mouthpiece.
Oh, Russia was promised NATO wouldn’t expand? Not so much.
The entire rest of your comment is similar Russian drivel. I’m not going to spend any more time with this because your opinion is not founded in logic. “You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.” You have a chip on your shoulder and it’s hindering your understanding.
As I think it was a professor of mine said, international politics is about power, not good. States are always doing things to make themselves more powerful. None of them are good. Some of them are just temporarily doing more evil to gain power than others. Once you look at the world with this point of view, it makes much more sense (though some leaders are just stupid, crazy, or self-obsessed).
“You disagree with my point of view, so I’m not gonna respond to any of your arguments because my state propaganda told me your point of view is forbidden and ontologically evil and I can automatically discard any discussion about it. Yes, I’m the one whose opinion is founded on logic”
Please explain me how my concerns about the far right rising (arguably pro-russian) and the worries about the welfare state in Europe and my support for a EU-wide military alliance are Russian talking points.
Such an agreement was never made," NATO says in a fact page on its website, one of multiple pages that addresses the Russian allegations. “NATO’s door has been open to new members since it was founded in 1949 — and that has never changed.”
In the Tucker interview Putin references the meeting where he asked for membership. The minutes of that meeting could have been published to proof him wrong. In other words Russia was kept out and as an opponent by the choice of Nato.
Besides the wording is that there was no agreement and not that there were no promises. That suggests that Russia’s point of view is not entirely wrong.
As I think it was a professor of mine said, international politics is about power, not good. States are always doing things to make themselves more powerful.
In that light, aren’t Nato’s actions forcing Russia’s hands?
They can. They don’t though. I advocate that they do. I’d love to see the EU with its own defensive force
Article 42
And
The command was designed in light of growing hostilities between European countries and Russia since the annexation of Crimea in 2014 and in response to logistic and bureaucratic hurdles limiting military logistics in case of a crisis.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Support_and_Enabling_Command
Nobody cares what the State Duma has to say
Another Russian shill?
Well, a Republican, so yes.
Honestly, NATO might be better off without them
Agreed. Drumpf is Pootins “man”*on the inside. Look to him to delay and prevaricate any NATO decision, and generally try to sabotage them
- Drumph is NOT a man. He’s a cowardly little orange shit weasel.
a man child
with the constant threat of trump working with PUTIN, who wants nato in disarray, its a good thing for the EU to divest from the usa.
Why do you think that? How would losing half the military assets and technology would benefit NATO?
The US is great at spending money in the military, but it absolutely sucks at actual war.
Look how they wasted trillions in Afghanistan to surrender to the Taliban.
the US military exists solely to funnel tax payer money to military shareholders.
That was to funnel money, steal gold, and oil.
in a way, the “mission accomplished” was true
Yeah but we won the war om werewolves.
basically like how the russians do it, with bodies, and money, except the usa wastes more money. no strategy, just keep throwing waves of campaign after campaign of wars, plus it also justify have a 800bn budget. tangentially, this is what mr benjamin is doing constant war aggression so he keeps getting aid from the us. Pakistan does it too, just pretend they are doing something about the taliban in thier borders, just to keep getting aid.
Actually, if you’re curious, look up how many wars the US has actually outright won on their own without being part of a coalition of allies.
The answer is shockingly few.
Even their great revolution needed help from an, at the time, true superpower i.e. the French.
checked a wiki page about that.
it’s frankly embarrassing how much the US military actually sucks.
likely human history most expensive military, and a complete waste of resources
The expense and waste is the point. Winning never was.
war is profitable, winning is irrelevant, soldiers lost are replaceable.
thats why they do these aggressive recruitment propaganda every few years, having a movie like top gun maverick helped alot last year and propaganda like business insider video of military jobs. and yes most of them are aimed at POCs. when obama came into power, recruitment/military was actually downsizing in a peacetime military, but trump reversed it the moment he was in his first time. i was in forums where it was when obama was in charge, it was getting harder and harder to get into the military(people were getting denied left and right for medical and financial and crime reasons that mightve seen consideration during the bush era), then i magically reversed the moment he left office.
The true Rule 34.
yea Just like how the Afghans kicked expansionist russia out. Afghans are strong people. it is a place where empires go to commit suicide.
Although US got Osama (hiding in Pakistan though).
I’ll grant you it’s a big racket, it’s corrupt, it’s inefficient, but I don’t think it’s a skill issue.
I wouldn’t consider failing to win the hearts and minds of the local populace using violence a military failure rather than a policy failure.
Ukraine showed that modern warfare is a different game than it used to.
it’s s resource war, cheap drones can cause lots of damage, and it is far more costly to fight them. long range rockets, v defense systems…
and given that US have painfully expensive toys, they won’t be able to hold of again a cheap enemy.
yhea, Maybe the F22 can outmanoeuvre another airplane in a dogfight, but who tf needs a dogfight? the enemy can just launch a volley of self guided missiles that costs 100x to intercept.
Half the military and technology assets that won’t ever actually be used to help NATO under Trump.
He’ll veto every action that goes against Russia… Which is what NATO was originally formed to do…
US arms are still flowing to Ukraine and the sanctions against Russia still stand. I’m not saying things haven’t gotten worse under Trump but it’s clear that the US still has an anti-Russia policy.
NATO is not against russia. It is against certain things that russia does to its neighbours who subscribe to NATO membership.
I don’t think it matters, the EU contains a mutual defense pact as well. Even if NATO fails to respond due to Trump being an Epstein related kiddie diddler, EU members have each other’s back. Turkey would be left out in the cold though.
So there’s no downside to having the US in NATO. Unless you’re Turkey.
Step 1: Get help from NATO in the middle the east. Step 2: Once NATO needs your help withdraw. Step 3: PROFIT.
Step 3: Become irrevelant, getting replaced by otherwise mediocre countries. That’s one way to bring world peace, I guess.
If we attack the USA, can I get some land in North Carolina?
The thinly veiled US exceptionalism that America is funding it. And their standard attack against other nations that they are welfare states taking advantage of USA.
Fucking assholes, if people are taking advantage of us. Then be proud we are so strong and rich that they even can.
I’m not saying Donald is a russian asset… But what more could daddy vladdy ask for?
We really need to examine this need people have to blame Russia for everything. Do you blame Russia when your dryer loses a sock too? It’s fascinating to me.
I might if Russia had a vested interest in taking my socks, and the dryer had a history of justifying Russia’s sock stealing.
Are we, including or excluding that it’s all, but been confirmed that he is a Russian asset ?whether it’s willing or unwilling remains to be seen.
And then Russia can do whatever the fuck they want. Which is what daddy Trump wants.
Not really. European NATO countries are currently strong enough to repel a Russian attack if we so wish. Taking into account hiw strong the Russia is at the moment. It will be stronger in the future, but we are easily able to increase our strength more than the Russia can.
And if USA withdraws from NATO, then the rest of EU, not only Finland, Baltics, Sweden, and Poland will be forced to take defence seriously. This will make NATO more like it was supposed to be, and it will no longer be used for offensive wars.
But… USA withdrawing from NATO would of course have negative sides:
- a war with the Russia would not end in two days with a decisive victory for us as it would with USA in, but would drag on for weeks at least, likely years. And thousands or tens of thousands would die.
- USA’s allies in Asia would not dare to trust USA anymore and would turn towards China for coöperation, regardless of China’s imperialism. This would.make China stronger, which would be bad for Europe.
But still: The EU is the biggest economy on this planet. We are absolutely able to win a war against a country with an economy only as big as one of our 27 member states. We just need to bother to do so. Which means we’ll need to change our mindset. Heh.
Right now nearly all aid to Ukraine comes from Europe and Russia is not able to win that war. At least not easily. That is with Russia in a war economy, whereas Europe half asses deliveries for the most part and obviously there are over a million professional European soldiers with some really good kit around as well.
I’m fairly sure Ukraine is almost stronger than EU combined right now. We would NOT speedrun Russia, and Russia is a death cult that would have hundreds if not millions of casualties on their side, even if we did (saying this as a Serbian, and we are normally very proud of our combat abilities for some reason).
Oh trump’s definitely not the “daddy” in this relationship.
Don’t threaten me with a good time time
Yeah, no, that’s not going to be a good time for anyone
Except everyone who isn’t in NATO or near an American military base lmao
This is literally the behavior of a traitor
Seriously, what happened USA? You were never the best, not even close, you were one of the worst, but st least you tried. Now you just kinda dropped pretence and went full asshole
And only 6 months into one administration. Honestly I’ve never seen politicians work so fast at anything
4 years followed by 4 years of biden where republicans blocked almost everything but he is now a perfect puppet to blame for everything and now the next 6 months. But Trump already started to refill positions back then.
All of Europe will be Russia.
The Russia that can’t take Ukraine? Keep dreaming.
From a Turkish perspective, it’s fucking ridiculous for Trump to first convince us to increase the defense budget, then withdraw from the alliance completely. The fuck is his goal?
“Keep 'em guessing”. You have to understand Trump is not a statesman. It’s that simple. He views everything as a one-to-one personal power dynamic in the context of some silly real estate deal about which restaurant supplier to choose for the crispy tortilla shells.
I don’t think he understands the ramifications beyond a contract he won’t respect or some clever insult he can hurl.
He’s a trust-fund nitwit cosplaying as an entrepreneur, who has been parachuted into the Presidency.
Spending more on defense is the republican thing it matters to them more than anything else so it does not matter at all if we even need it.
So we dont buy US military kit. It’s got kill switches and hard to keep running without their support. It’s increasing looking like they aren’t aligned with the free world.
I recommend buying all of Hobby Kings >80 amp ESCs, all their 4S batteries, and lots of high KV outrunner BLDCs. Then buy all the carbon fiber sheets from aliexpress and build drones baby.
