Yes, they’re going to get invaded. That should not upset anybody who believes in the sanctity of human life because it’s certainly not going to create a worse outcome than 2 million people being starved out.

The U.-Fucking-N. and the ICJ. After WWII we came together and decided the rules. Genocide is justification for invasion under the rules.

This is the innate issue with creating an ethno-state, it makes it difficult to delineate grievances between ethnicity and state. I don’t know what the solution is, but I find it understandable that some people would agree with expulsion.

Is it really ethnic cleansing when the ethno-state they built continues to genocide their neighbors with the approval of the vast majority of its citizens?

Is Israel paying for people to immigrate to Israel with the purpose of expanding the Israeli state not an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?

I don’t think you can really say these beliefs are born out of antisemitism, not when the Israeli state purposely engages in ethnic superiority based policy.

Many of those immigrants are not European (or North American).

The majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi from the Middle East.

1. Ok, irrelevent, I already specified non-native citizens. Don’t bring it up again if you’re interested in intellectually honest conversation.
2. Okay.
3. Okay.
4. Okay.
5. Yes, for any country that is actively apartheid and actively trying to further solidify that apartheid by shipping in immigrants based on ethnicity.

Reminder that I asked a question to clarify whether or not my position, which is not the same as the position your meme is criticizing. So I don’t really see why you think it’s necessary to attribute that position to me.

I’ll repeat what I said specifically so you can clarify whether or not MY specific, NUANCED position is also problematic.

So, based on the new evidence, I’ll even adjust what I’m saying. Is it fair, then, to call for the relocation of dual citizens, that come from countries like the US or UK, who moved into the country as an adult after visiting Israel on their birthright trip? People who I would consider to be first generation colonizers? Forget those other people. I am not a bad faith nazi trying to get you to conflate the two groups and walk into some gotcha question. Just answer the actual question that I am posing.

By that logic that birth in Israel gives the right to stay there, this would in turn mean that this birth revokes the right to compensation for the ancestors that were murdered in the Holocaust or survived it and chose not to go back to Germany.

You cant have it both.

Also the Palestinians who were also born on that land and driven out, should then not have the right to return? This is just Imperialism and Apartheid with extra steps.

Unless the current illegal occupiers buy the land from the legitimate owners at a fair price and compensate the legitimate owners for the time of the illegal occupation, they have no right to remain on that land.

Also you’re a racist for constantly conflating “Israeli” and “Jewish person” throughout this conversation and attempting to project that conflation on me. Thanks.

Regarding 5: If you were in Argentina in the 50s, would you support a policy of “go back where you came from” to Nazi immigrants? Because setting aside the ethnic side, there’s no way the vast majority of first-generation immigrants to Israel aren’t hopelessly Zionist.

Is it not? This meme says you’re allowed to criticize the government of Israel, but I’m taking it one step further and criticizing the population of Israel that supports killing babies, children, women, and innocents.

and all measures possible employed against it to pressure it to cease.

Including Palestinian military action and guerilla war, correct?

with the bizarre notion that Israel-born Israelis can just be shipped back to where their ancestors came from in Europe

The majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi who came from Middle Eastern countries. They are also the political base of Likud and other right wingers. Itamar Ben Gvir is an Iraqi Jew for example. The Ashkenazi (European) Jews are more likely to be center and left.

Of course Western activists don’t know any of that. For them Israelis = white = European = evil, Palestinians = brown = good is the only model to understand the world. Palestinians and Jewish Israelis are indistinguishable just from looks. Both have pretty varied phenotypes from blond to black.

And it’s all bad. But I was raised in the Evangelical Church. I read the bibble cover to cover 4 times before I was 15. Was on track to become a preacher. It was the hypocrisy of the church and the people in it that made me into the merrily militant atheist I am today.

Go argue 20th century geopolitical body counts with some poli-sci major. We’re shitting on organized religion right now.

How many wars do you hear the Zoroastrians committing?
Pastafarians too.
And weirdly enough Jehovah’s witnesses.

Why have disdain for someone wanting to believe in a story? Lots of people do lots of worse lies to themselves.

Being well is not a type of disease

And? What’s your point? Does that make killing of innocents in a stolen land justified? Are you brain damaged?

Actually, technically, officially

“Israel” (declared may 1948) existed before “Palestine” (declared 1988).

The Jews and the Arabs have both been there for millennia, and the land has been contested since the dawn of recorded history.

It was originally called Canaan in the late Bronze Age (1500 - 1200 BCE).

Then in the Iron Age it was called Judea.

Then the Romans conquered the land and called it Syria Palestina (the land of Syrian “Phillistines”, aka uncultured/uncivilized people.)

Later that evolved into Palestine, which wasn’t codified until 1988, 40 years after the formation of Israel.

Both peoples have been there for millennia, both peoples have been committing atrocities on one another, and both peoples have a legitimate claim to the land.

This isn’t a simple black and white issue with good guys and bad guys. Claiming Israel is the bad guys because they’re the current aggressors, is like walking in on a fight and accusing the one who’s currently winning of being the whole reason for the fight in the first place.

You have to know the whole story, unbiased, looking from both sides, to understand a current conflict.

These lands and these people’s need outside arbitration.

They’re incapable of coming to a peaceful solution on their own. They’re too proud and they both feel too entitled and righteous.

One of them is currently more monied and has more support from imperialist governments, but they’ve both done horrible things to one another and ended millions of eachothers lives over millennia.

Israel is trying to put an end to it forever in the most effective way they can think of.

Violence.

It’s not fair.

If you study history, you will see not much about us is fair.

In recent times we have become abnormally civilized, but only just barely.

You fucking sound like an Uyghur genocide apologist ghoul.

Hmm that’s a dumb reply. Please try better.

Interesting, what term would you use to describe what has been happening in Palestine and specifically since the last 21 months?

i think it’s this:

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/einstein/1948/12/02.htm

To the Editors of the New York Times:

Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.

The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.

Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin’s behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.

The public avowals of Begin’s party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

Attack on Arab Village

A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants240 men, women, and childrenand kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.

The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.

Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.

During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.

The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.

Discrepancies Seen

The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a “Leader State” is the goal.

In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin’s efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.

The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.

ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ, HANNAH ARENDT, ABRAHAM BRICK, RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO, ALBERT EINSTEIN, HERMAN EISEN, M.D., HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN, M.D., H.H. HARRIS, ZELIG S. HARRIS, SIDNEY HOOK, FRED KARUSH, BRURIA KAUFMAN, IRMA L. LINDHEIM, NACHMAN MAISEL, SEYMOUR MELMAN, MYER D. MENDELSON, M.D., HARRY M. OSLINSKY, SAMUEL PITLICK, FRITZ ROHRLICH, LOUIS P. ROCKER, RUTH SAGIS, ITZHAK SANKOWSKY, I.J. SHOENBERG, SAMUEL SHUMAN, M. SINGER, IRMA WOLFE, STEFAN WOLFE.

New York, Dec. 2, 1948

Do you think nazis should have stayed in poland and become part of the one-state government? Why or why not?

I’m talking about nazis, not ethnically german poles. Can you understand the difference?

So fighting genocide with ethnic cleansing.

Crazy idea, but maybe we should end our dependence on oil? Wars cost money and we fund those wars when we buy oil. We pretend to be upset when we see the suffering caused by war, but then vote for whoever we think will bring down the price of gas and then pretend we don’t understand why there’s war in an oil rich region of the world.

two state solution is never going to work.

Israel is already a one state solution, as it contols all the territory and if commited to apartheid and genocide.

one democratic state is the only viable solution, just end apartheid, expand the racist right of return.

I don’t know what you thoght when typing up the post, but I do know what I understood when I read it.

A one-state solution is “never” going to work because that’s the current solution. There’s one state of Israel and no state of Palestine. And currently, Israel hasn’t show itself to be all too nice to the palestinians, what with the settling, apartheid and recently as transparent genocide as it gets.

What a one state solution will do is keep the current oppressive power structures. Meaning nothing will truly change. The Israeli press has shown itself to be very anti-Palestinian, and a lot of the population is indoctrinated to think Jews are entitled to settle the land at all costs towards the Palestinians.

There are a lot of examples on YouTube of ‘regular’ Israelis talking of it in the most gruesome and off-putting words imaginable. One might call it cognitive dissonance, but it’s pure indoctrination.

And breaking such indoctrination, cultivated potentialy since the dawn of the sigle state, takes both time and effort.

Effort which is most lukely to succeed were the Palestinians given their own, fully autonomus, UN-recognized and in all aspects equal state free from Israeli control of all types.

Why?

Because Israel has shown itself to be unworthy of having authority over Palestinians.

Systematic oppression needs an equally systematic way of undoing it. Any attepmts at molding the current power structures are unlikely to stop the mistreatment of Palestinians.

The current Israel was and continues to be a one-state solution. A failed solution, that lead to the current genocide. The only way in which such a solution would work is through radical changes to the power structures of the current State, or a new one altogether. One with new laws, a new government, artificially made to overrepresent Palestinians to try to undo the equally artificial, but ingrained in Israeli society opression of them.

Previous such solutions have had a very bad success rate. Such an artificial state is truly like a house of cards. A bad compromise. Neither side is happy for a long time - both feel entitled to more than they get.

So in my humble opinion, one could say that Israel has been given a chance to govern the Palestinians. What they ended up doing is commiting systematic opression a d as of late, a very transparent genocide against them.

If you ask me, any goodwill they’ve gotten to that end was rescinded as of late, and anything less than a two-state solution will be rewarding the perpetrators.

Obligatorily: I’m not saying that Israelis are all genocidal maniacs, or activelly commiting genocide. But the state, their state, is. And such a state cannot reasonably be expected to stop of its own accord or by a finger-wag from the UN. Since the figer-wagging has been done consistently for quite some time now, way before the recent escalations.