In an unexpected mask off “secure” email and VPN provider Proton took the stance of siding with the fascist MAGA Reps. Proton’s services are no option for me and many others any longer. Let’s collect and discuss alternatives (E2E encrypted email and VPN) here 🔐👇
Always try to provide:
-Server location (jurisdiction)
-Governance
-Integrity/trustworthiness/transparency
-User experience/ease of use (grade 1 to 10, lets take Proton as a benchmark with an 8)
-Pricing and links
If you know alternative setups, feel free to share, too.
#ProtonExodus
Background: https://lemmy.ca/comment/13913116
Edit:typo
Sigh.
Goddammit. I’m so fucking tired.
This is how they win.
Like zombies, slow and steady, dumb and hungry
Perfect
Be tired with Tuta!
Am I the only that don’t see this the same way as the rest? I am in way way endorsing or supporting MAGA, but they did take action against big tech (though for reasons of retribution) and I see Proton only acknowledging a good person being designated to lead the next antitrust efforts, apparently with a good track record.
Proton also acknowledges Lina Kahn who has done a great job, nominated under Joe Biden.
Ultimately, I feel like from a perspective of Proton, any win against Big Tech, is a good win, and I can’t disagree.
There is a longer discussion to be had around how the dems were supported by oligarchs and I think that’s what Proton is referring to, they decided to turn a blind eye under the Obama administration for instance. Bernie Sanders goes to lengths about this in this interview, illuminating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzkgWDCucNY
So all in all, maga sucks, new pick probably good, and in my view, proton not actually endorsing maga/trump but just acknowledging a good pick.
Did I miss something?
The main part of the message that pissed me off was the idea that GOP sides with the “little guy”. First, it’s demonstrably false. Second, he is a tech CEO. He wouldn’t recognise a little guy before his security crew has time to forcibly remove him.
Yes I fully agree with you.
Does that claim alone warrant the absolute backlash though? I personally feel like no.
Trump’s terrible politics aside:
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the Republican party is pushing legislation which requires you to identify yourself to view porn
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you can get around this with a VPN
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proton is a VPN (nonprofit, but still).
I’ll be switching email providers when I can… I can’t remember when my subscription ends.
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Truly unhinged that they decided to come out on this. Fellas, you are fucking Swiss why throw yourself under the bus for the US election
Because terrible people literally can’t help themselves. Wait for people to show you who they truly are, they will…
The CEO “apologized” this morning (after being duly chastised, I’m sure):
Hi all, last night, a post from last year from my personal X account suddenly became a topic of discussion here on Reddit. I want to share a few thoughts on this to provide clarity to the community on what is Proton’s policy on politics going forward.
First, while the X post was not intended to be a political statement, I can understand how it can be interpreted as such, and it therefore should not have been made. While we will not prohibit all employees from expressing personal political opinions publicly, it is something I will personally avoid in the future. I lean left on some issues, and right on other issues, but it doesn’t serve our mission to publicly debate this. It should be obvious, but I will say that it is a false equivalence to say that agreeing with Republicans on one specific issue (antitrust enforcement to protect small companies) is equal to endorsing the entire Republican party platform.
Second, officially Proton must always be politically neutral, and while we may share facts and analysis, our policy going forward will be to share no opinions of a political nature. The line between facts, analysis, and opinions can be blurry at times, but we will seek to better clarify this over time through your feedback and input.
The exception to these rules is on the topics of privacy, security, and freedom. These are necessarily political topics, where influencing public policy to defend these values, often requires engaging politically.
The operations of Proton have always reflected our neutrality. For example, recently we refused pressure to deplatform both Palestinian student groups and Zionist student groups, not because we necessarily agreed with their views, but because we believe more strongly in their right to have their own views.
It is also a legal guarantee under Swiss law, which explicitly prohibits us from assisting foreign governments or agencies, and allows us no discretion to show favoritism as Swiss law and Swiss courts have the final say.
The promise we make is that no matter your politics, you will always be welcome at Proton (subject of course to adherence to our terms and conditions). When it comes to defending your right to privacy, Proton will show no favoritism or bias, and will unconditionally defend it irrespective of the opinions you may hold.
This is because both Proton as a company, and Proton as a community, is highly diverse, with people that hold a wide range of opinions and perspectives. It’s important that we not lose sight of nuance. Agreeing/disagreeing with somebody on one point, rarely means you agree/disagree with them on every other point.
I would like to believe that as a community there is more that unites us than divides us, and that privacy and freedom are universal values that we can all agree upon. This continues to be the mission of the non-profit Proton Foundation, and we will strive to carry it out as neutrally as possible.
Going forward, I will be posting via u/andy1011000. Thank you for your feedback and inputs so far, and we look forward to continuing the conversation.
Original post: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i2nz9v/on_politics_and_proton_a_message_from_andy/
Am I being paranoid when I notice that the binary at the end of his username translates to 88?
StartMail, netherlands. runs StartPage, a searchengine. politically engaged company in europe. pro GDPR & eu politicians being educated more than they have been. POP & IMAP, i use clients like ArcaneChat on android and ThunderBird on desktop.
MullvadVPN, sweden. have been raided by police and have hade no data to disclose. 5€ a month for up to five devices. does DAITA and multihopping. has own client, streamlined to use, also performs as well with wireguard.
“Proton? Why the fuck would he be mad at a WINE fork…?”
“… OH THE MAIL-”Mullvad is supposed to be a safe and secure VPN.
Unfortunately not a mail or storage provider.
If this wasn’t enough of a wakeupcall to not put all the eggs in one basket then what is? Companies are literally doing this to lock you into their service so it’s harder to switch since you then have to find X new services instead of just one.
Better go with one that’d specialized for each service you need…
Btw, unrelated to the twitter debacle, Proton’s cloud app on Android, sucks ass. Can’t even download an entire folder, downloading more than 25 files get glitchy and not all files get downloaded. Every other cloud provider could do that.
Posteo, Mailbox.org, and Tuta are all good alternatives.
Phew! For a moment I thought you were talking about the steam compatibility thingy.
I thought they were talking about the elementary particle—I was afraid we’d have to find some other way of manifesting our physical existence.
Aww man! AGAIN?!?
If that proton goes nazi, I am going straight to the farm
Protonmail has been my main email provider for the past 7 years, and unless its CEO decides to sell it to Trump or Musk I honestly don’t see how his stupid private or not so private opinions are worth the hassle of changing my email for the million things I use my main and all the other emails I registered with Protonmail.
Most rich people have very dubious or outright awful political opinions and unless you’re rich enough to have someone build you an alternative or deconnected enough from society/only exist in programmer circles and are able to live entirely on FOSS software I don’t see why the average user should care about the CEO’s political stance. Maybe that’s my ignorant opinion as a European, but would you stop using Linux if you found out Linus Torvalds secretly loves Windows? Probably not.Service =/= Software
Proton could (theoretically) hold your data hostage. Linus Torvalds could not just update linux to inject a maga banner in your desktop, or turn your os into ransomware. Even if your distro maintainer wanted to do that, you still have the final say on whether or not to update (and if you keep up with the news, you can just avoid the update and wait for someone to fork it).
Your analogy/ example is fucked up and beyond stupid. Protonmail is hosted by the organization. Linus has no access to the Linux systems in the world. Also, thousands have contributed to the Linux ecosystem.
I agree that my analogy is fucked up and a little stupid, but I was just applying OPs logic: Andy Yen doesn’t do any more for Proton than Linus Torvalds does for Linux; they’re just stand in figures that people project their love or in this case hate onto. I doubt he personally wrote a single line of code for Proton. In that case Linus Torvalds is actually way more involved with Linux than Andy Yen is with Proton; Andy Yen might have more power over Proton but afaik and like you said Proton is owned in majority by its foundation, which I hope does get a say in what they do.
How dare you find a tone to respond that makes me regret my original harsh choice of words a little? :P Still - my point was that no matter how much Torvals is involved, the linux ecosystem isn’t under his control, while proton services are very much under corporate control, and if their CEO decides to introduce a backdoor for american nazi services, that can happen.
Unlike some I’m not here to insult other people :)
Yeah you have a point there and I totally get how my comment was a bit shortsighted on that end, but I was just weirded out by the fact that a CEO’s political position is supposed to be indicative of the future actions/positions of a company. Sure it’s not entirely unlikely that it might affect the company in the future, but OPs post just felt a little like fearmongering to me.Have you been following the news though? The 180 policy swings the moment it seemed good for business under a new administration in the divided states? Is it really so far-fetched to worry about a dipshit at the top of a company?
He directly profits from Proton subscriptions. As does the rest of the leadership which seem to back him on this.
A comparison of singing the praises for a modern proto-fascist movement with “secretly loving Windows” is… certainly something.
Yeah you’re right, I hadn’t considered that because I never paid a single cent for anything Proton, that’s a mistake on my part. Sometimes I forget capitalism is still a thing.
A comparison of singing the praises for a modern proto-fascist movement with “secretly loving Windows” is… certainly something.
If that’s the takeaway you had from reading both of my comments then I honestly can’t help you, but I can try to spell out my intent a second time:
I deliberately chose Linus Torvalds because he’s basically Jesus of Lemmy but I didn’t expect to be called a fascist over a dumb analogy I used to show that OP might be overextrapolating a CEO’s standpoint onto a whole company. I agree that there is a not insignificant risk of this affecting the company, don’t get me wrong, but this post just feels like fearmongering.I think you misread my comment. I didn’t call you a fascist, I simply called out two points where your comparison falls flat.
Wow!
Of all companies, this is one I didn’t expect.
Damn.
the good news is this is a lesson to never trust any entity whose role in the world is to accumulate capital
What’s insane is that didn’t Proton just recently announce they were converting to a non-profit?
Yes, they did: https://proton.me/blog/proton-non-profit-foundation
Yea, and Andy Yen is only one of five members on the board of the Non-Profit organization, so you’ll just have to gamble that everyone else isn’t this weird (if you still want to continue using Proton services, that is, your choice 🤷♂️).
There is absolutely no way to verify any of Proton’s privacy claims. Why should I trust one for profit company over another?
... ... ....,, .
Why would this be unexpected?
Proton already handed over the IP of a climate protester to authorities several years ago, while boasting that they had a no log policy.
https://therecord.media/protonmail-forced-to-collect-an-activists-ip-address-in-police-investigation
Every time, in the past few years, that I bring this up, everyone just acts like I’m setting an impossible standard and no alternative exists.
Proton has been shady for years.
I didn’t know about this. I haven’t followed Proton closely for a while, but this…wow. Kinda lousy.
I wish I had heard of this earlier, that combined with these new political statements is enough for me to find something else.
From reading that article it looks like they were only using and able to log the IP address when the person logged in to their protonmail account specifically - not VPN.
They even state that VPNs can not be forced to log under the same legal order and are treated differently so in this case it seems the activists were not using the VPN while accessing their emails.
Although I dont agree with even the logging of the email IP, it appears like the user shot themselves in the foot like that other case where someone used their real name in the username and that obviosly has to be logged in some way.
You could look at infomaniak, but I didn’t have the best experience trying out (or even getting started with) their services. Finding a provider that has all of Proton’s apps is going to be tough (or at least it was from me while I was looking to escape from Tuta). Good luck, tho.
Escape from Tuta for what reason if you’re willing to share? I see it recommended a lot.
Oh boy, getting old here, let’s see if I can remember.
I think in part it was because they seemed unable to fix the Linux desktop client after months and months and months, and repeated support requests. Also, I had been a user of theirs for some time when they changed how their plans worked, and moved a feature I relied heavily upon (I think it was email templates—something you might never need!) to a much more expensive plan. Felt like I was being charged more for being a longtime user. I don’t know if they have cloud storage now, but at the time they didn’t, and Proton had that, along of course with mail and calendar—all of that for less than what Tuta was offering which was mail, calendar, and plenty of other features that were continuously promised but never released. So really just a bunch of little things that were important to me, but which other users might never miss.
Thanks for the writeup. It helps to know where to look to make an informed decision, when I finally have the time to sit down and de-google.
Finding a provider that has all of Proton’s apps is going to be toug
Nobody should be using any provider as one stop shop… That’s how we got cooked by Google and Apple the first time folks.
Unbundle, mix and match…
Yeah it auck Proton did this but if you only got one proton service, it is eaiser to either do nothing or switch it.
I agree! I don’t use Proton’s VPN or their password manager for that reason. The equivalents I had in place already were fine and I didn’t feel the need to switch over everything, just some things.
I feel like I should pre-emptively switch to Keepass incase Bitwarden goes right wing.
I mean, Keepass is free open source software so the political views of the developers don’t matter as much.
I mean, Keepass is free open source software so the political views of the developers don’t matter as much.
So is bitwarden, you don’t have to use their servers.
+1 for keepass. Been using it for years and love it.
Uhg. How much longer until it’s more viable to self host…
I will prefer to pay Zoho Mail instead of supporting Proton Mail. I was just holding into them because of their support to privacy and security but the lack of support to Linux and now this. I will move on.
ZoHo’s CEO is no better https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sridhar_Vembu#Political_views
Its actually worse since Zoho CEO have more control compared to Andy Yen’s 1/5 of the voice on the board, as a non-profit organization.
I was mulling moving everything from Google to Proton. Guess I’ll keep my money for now.
AFAICT, it looks like all he’s doing is praising Trump’s pick for AG in the Antitrust division . . . although if you look over her Wikipedia page, you’re right, it doesn’t look all that encouraging.
Can someone on Mastodon ask the Proton CEO what it was exactly that she did that he likes so much? Anyone who can work at Fox for any length of time, frankly, is complete and utter shite.
EDIT: Also, just as a broken clock can be right twice a day, President 🍄 sank the Trans Pacific Partnership, which was the right thing to do, but for the wrong reason: mainly to get back at Obama for existing. So in the same way, I suppose it’s possible that Slater did something good, but I’d sure like to know what it was.
