Hello all, it is with a heavy heart that I must admit that I have become the drama that I always sought to avoid for this server. In this case, I could easily let sleeping dogs lie, but I’m somewhat exhausted and I don’t really see the point of continuing here if there isn’t some semblance of justice or rational thought to be found. More to the point, if Lemmy continues to display outright hostility and toxicity towards Americans at every turn, there is virtually no chance that this platform will ever develop beyond its current fringe status.
Although this server is based in Canada, I think we probably have a good number of Americans, and also despite recent events I think Canadians and Americans are fairly similar and have historically gotten along quite well with one another. I’m curious if a more diverse array of people will find any value in my actions, or if I’m truly just shouting into the wind. Strap in, because this is gonna be a long one.
This all started yesterday when @DankOfAmerica@reddthat.com made a post to AskLemmy. The original post read as follows.
I responded here. I had indeed noticed the constant derisive comments regarding Americans, although I didn’t agree with the assumption that such comments were made by Russian/Chinese agents, and stated as much.
In my view, the responses to both OP and myself in that thread constitute clear evidence that at least one of our assumptions was true. In response to being called out on their hateful behavior, a number of users proceeded to double down, attempting to gaslight myself and OP and even suggesting that we were actually the Russian spies 🕵️♂️
Several hours later, one of our users decided to make a post “exposing” my behavior on !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com. Despite the fact that I hadn’t utilized any moderator powers during this saga, he found my words to be offensive enough to post on said community. The post was eventually removed because it was unsuitable for the community, but not before I had replied in defense of myself. This was unfortunate, although understandable, because I felt that my response was something that Lemmy users could benefit from hearing.
I made this post because I want my fellow sh.itjust.works users to judge whether my actions and thoughts were reasonable, and I also want to expose this individual for what they are. My first option was !fediverselore@lemmy.ca, but it’s not allowed to post drama that you’re involved in. Also, I’m not really looking for the opinions of people who subscribe to drama communities on Lemmy, but rather the opinions of the average sh.itjust.works user. So here’s the screenshot of the removed post.
Here’s my reply.
It’ll probably be easier reading if you go to my profile and/or his profile. Although the post was deleted, the comments should still appear in our profiles.
To summarize, this user bullied a brand new user into deleting their account, responding to an innocent, highly upvoted meme with this comment
He let’s me freely hang out at his nice place full of amenities so I can’t badmouth him
Lmfao, no, you can, you just like the taste of boot, and the benefits he gives you (that he only has because he exploits people like you) too much to.
Also, those last two points in the meme, as well as this being your only post on a new account strongly suggest that this is a troll, or at the very least, a really sad LARP, rather than observations made by someone who has ever spent any time at all with any actual rich people.
Two days later, he decided to call me out for mod abuse, despite the fact that I hadn’t removed a single comment of his. Now he’s decided to move over to lemmy.dbzer0.com, thank goodness.
But overall, aside from the specifics of this drama, I also want y’all to render judgment on whether or not Lemmy tends to exhibit a toxic attitude towards Americans. Notice that I said Americans, not America. I don’t give a shit if people criticize and blatantly shit on America for the decisions that our government makes. But it’s far too often that Lemmy users go beyond that line and decide to hurl personal insults towards Americans, often in completely non-political communities. I’ve always had thick skin and an open mind, so if I’m getting annoyed by it, my assumption is that most other Americans will find it intolerable. And although we don’t need to be a majority American site by any means, the sheer numbers dictate that if Americans find this site intolerable, it will never achieve mainstream success.
And if I hear one more fucking person say that America only joined World War 2 after it was already over, or that we were cowards for not joining sooner, I swear to God I’ma start criticizing the metric system again 😂
EDIT:
Thanks for the replies, I’ll try to be less of an arrogant prick going forward and in return I’d like people to reflect on my words from time to time. My primary motivation is making Lemmy better and having more diverse viewpoints, I wouldn’t have called anyone out if I didn’t feel that some of you are creating an environment that is self-destructive towards our goals in that regard. But maybe I’m overreacting, I would just ask you to put yourself in other people’s shoes before making comments, and remember that we’re all on the same team here, even the North American Scum
I don’t really care about this kind of drama here. I think people are allowed to have opinions. Attacks on people based on -isms are not cool, but let’s be real… aren’t jokes that target Americans punching up in some of the contexts you’re referring to? And that’s usually fair game.
As for jealousy towards Americans, I truly don’t believe that’s the case.
If there were underlying jealousy, it’d be more towards the country being relatively safe during WW2, having not been bombed or invaded the way Europe was, and having that massive advantage as it grew as a nation.
The success of the USA is generally because of its geographical location and the unfortunate economic conditions that hit Europe due to WW2. I don’t think it’s really because of anything special about American people or American culture.
I think people can be upset with Americans the way that people can be upset with trust fund kids who tell less fortunate people to pick themselves up by the bootstraps.
With that said… can’t you make comments without revealing yourself as an admin? I feel like that’s just going to trigger some people, lol
With that said… can’t you make comments without revealing yourself as an admin? I feel like that’s just going to trigger some people, lol
I dunno, there’s an option to “speak as moderator” but I literally never turn it on. But I figured if people click on my profile they can probably see.
It adds that little shield thing but as I said, I never use it.
I think jealousy was the wrong word to use, but saltiness feels more appropriate. It’s precisely because of the fact that America is only in its current position due to a series of recent historical events that makes it more frustrating for non-Americans. They seem to feel that we are undeserving of our wealth and power, and that they would do a better job if they were running this country.
I get the trust fund analogy, but what about the trust fund kid who donates a lot of money to charity and gets a medical degree and serves underprivileged communities in developing countries? It seems to me that many lemmings would still shit on that person just because of their birth, regardless of the fact that they’re trying to do the right thing.
That’s what I find frustrating, because it’s so counterproductive. If you still get shit on just for being American even when you’re actively trying to escape the corporate machine that controls every aspect of our lives and to connect with alternative viewpoints via Lemmy, you start to wonder why you should even bother.
All of your comments show up to me as having a red username, where everyone else is blue. I’m in Voyager. Either your role is permanently showing in my app, or you’ve got something messed up with the settings. Maybe the shield means “Hide your mod status” and you’ve got it backwards?
As for the benevolent trust fund kid…you’re only focusing on the good. Others are only focusing on the bad. Both are wrong. And I don’t think getting into the exact ratio would be productive, lol
I do empathize with the challenges of trying to feel like part of a community while being “othered” like that. I think the best thing you could do is to not have your username be glowing red for everyone.
Whenever a mod comes in commenting with their mod colour turned on, it makes it look like the mod is implying “Whatever I’m saying here is more important than anyone else’s comment because I’m a mod”. Whether you intend it or not, that’s how it can come across. And to anyone who has issues with authority (which will be a LOT of people here, lol), that’s just putting a target on your back.
You can’t change the comments that people post, but you can influence the kinds of replies you get.
Hmm, that’s interesting. It’s definitely from your app, I’m not confusing the settings. When I click the “Speak as mod” button, the shield appears. I assume that Voyager just automatically displays all admins in red.
Unfortunately, I don’t think there is any way for me to hide my admin status, at least in the current Lemmy version. And honestly, there probably shouldn’t be. It might also be because you have a local SJW account, while users from other servers would only see their local admins in red. Idk.
I appreciate the advice and you’ve got a good point, but it’s never really been a problem for me before. One of the best things about Lemmy is that the admins aren’t so high and mighty that they don’t interact with normal users.
I was just a normal user when I first joined, and then I got elected as a moderator of TheAgora, and then TheDude eventually appointed me as an admin to help manage the server. Then eventually I appointed kerploosh and InEnduringGrowStrong later on, who were also just normal SJW users up until then. I’m very proud of the fact that our admins are just normal users who enjoy Lemmy and are trying to help the server flourish in any way we can. There may come a point where we grow to a size where that approach is no longer tenable, but at the current growth rate, I don’t see it happening any time soon.
I agree with the other commenter. Make an alt account or five, at least for some of the more “spicy” comments.
I don’t write here like I would on Instagram where my friends would see it, or like I would on Facebook where my family would see it, or like I would on LinkedIn where my professional network would see it.
I have different accounts where I can post different crap because different people can see it and I’d have to be accountable to them for what aspects of me they’re seeing.
Unfortunately, being an admin means people hold you to a different standard. Like a cop walking around with a uniform and badge on while trying to party in a frat house.
Sorry but I just replied to the same suggestion so I’m just gonna copy paste my reply below
In general, I agree, but I’m concerned with the prevalence of vote manipulation and shithousing on this site, and I feel like my past track record on this account is one of the only ways for me to protect myself from the constant baseless accusations of being a Russian shill, being a right winger, etc.
I feel that someone needs to be able to counter the increasing tendency towards absolute ideological purity that is strangling this platform, and if people don’t know me from a hole in the wall, it’ll be that much easier to discredit me when I try to criticize the circlejerking that goes on here.
In other words, I’m a human being, and I have opinions, and I’m flawed. But that doesn’t mean I can’t or don’t try my best to act objectively and in the best interests of the server when I’m performing my admin duties. That’s reality, and hiding behind alt accounts just to pretend that I’m a pure paragon of justice on my admin account isn’t really my style, and I don’t really see how it would benefit anyone.
And just in response to your comment specifically, I don’t view my actions over the past few days as having been “spicy” takes, or exhibiting an attitude of partying in a frat house. Some of the things I said were quite frank, yes, but I only came out and said them because I felt that people needed to hear them and respond to them for the good of Lemmy.
As much as people won’t ever believe me in this, I probably wouldn’t have even said any of that crap if I was just a normal user, because personally, I don’t really get upset easily, and I don’t go out of my way seeking confrontation. It’s the fact that I am an admin that led me to speak out, because I feel like these behaviors are harmful to my users who I’m supposed to advocate for and protect, and harmful to the success of Lemmy, which I’m deeply invested in through my role as an admin.
The party at the frat house is Lemmy. You’re the cop, haha
I get where you’re coming from. Saying it as an admin will draw more attention to your comment, as you know, but I think it’ll backfire more often than not by bringing more negative attention.
You’ll also be more likely to bring out reactance in people, I imagine.
Spicy wasn’t the right word, but you commented because you felt your opinion needed to be heard, which suggests it might be unpopular with some audiences.
Saying it because you’re an admin is one thing. Saying it as a admin will draw attention that’ll probably be more negative than not, unfortunately.
Unfortunately, I don’t think there is any way for me to hide my admin status, at least in the current Lemmy version.
You could use an alt to comment, and another account to admin/mod. Your current account shows with the M mod, and I’m not on your instance.
I personally mod using alts, to limit the reach of potential drama should I have controversial takes, or heated discussions with other users.
As you probably noticed, one of the element that made the drama blow up was you making derogatory comments using your admin account. Would this has been on a normal account, the impact would probably have been much lower.
Lemm.ee and Lemmy.zip usually get praised on their invisible admins. You see them post the updates about the servers from time to time, but that’s it.
The success of the USA is generally because of its geographical location and the unfortunate economic conditions that hit Europe due to WW2.
Do not forget slavery. This is huge to the success of the US.
Notice that I said Americans, not America
I don’t see any crticism of Americans on here, though I could not read your fine print, and I need to preface the rest of what I will say with I want the best for Americans.
And if I hear one more fucking person say that America only joined World War 2 after it was already over
That is an act that America did, and it was definitely motivated by ensuring control over Germany instead of USSR. No Americans were offered the freedom to not storm Normandy. Your lead comment of “Chinese/Russian agents” behind your angst is also something America would say.
That Americans/Westoids trust America in its justification for war on Russia and future war on China, that they trust America after an election where both parties conspired to elect Netanyahu’s favorite for genocide, is a problem Americans are too powerless to stop. A defining characteristic of Americans/westoids is being misinformed as a result of their trust of, and identity wrapped up in an evil America.
There is a strong likelihood that what you perceive as toxicity to Americans is toxicity towards those defending their trust of America.
I have to say, the first paragraph of your reply does not give the impression that you want to argue in good faith…
I agree wholeheartedly. My assumption was that such behavior was simply a symptom of the relatively larger proportion of Europeans on this site, and their obvious jealousy and insecurity regarding Americans. I still believe that is the most likely explanation.
That sounds like you think all Europeans are jealous of Americans, and that they have good reason to. It comes off as troll-ish at the very least.
I wasn’t arguing, I was agreeing with the OP and suggesting that rather than Russian/Chinese agents, there was a more likely source of the hatred.
I don’t think all Europeans are anything, they are a very diverse group. I’m just trying to understand why people act the way they do on Lemmy, based on what I’ve observed over the past year or so. When you see aggresively angry takes being highly upvoted in random threads for seemingly no reason, you search for a psychological rationale, and that was my conclusion. As I said, I would be salty about America too, if I wasn’t born here. We’re fucking up big time, and the rest of the world is along for the ride. But berating people on Lemmy isn’t likely to change anything for the better.
I know that I could have come off more diplomatically, but it’s a bit rich to accuse me of trolling for reacting strongly to a slew of personal insults and attacks that never seems to end. You’re lucky that I even bother to respond, unlike the thousands of Americans who silently perceived that they weren’t welcome on this site and slunk back to reddit.
I’m trying to help you understand how you’re making people feel, regardless of whether your behavior is caused by jealousy or some other emotion. The constant picking apart of my words without addressing the meat of my argument is exhausting, and everyone has a breaking point where they just don’t wanna deal with it anymore.
Would you care to speculate how your psychoanalysis of Internet commenters leading you to describe them with what would generally be regarded as personal insults–jealous, insecure, immature, assholes, smug bastards, emotional–makes people feel? In this discussion about how you desire for people to be nicer to each other, it’s worth considering.
To be clear, toxic people are majorly unpleasant and you’re right to call people out for throwing around personal insults in a place where we hopefully all want to come to have to or see civil interactions and maybe sometimes have a bit of fun.
You’re right, I know that I might appear to be hitting out at a lot of people who don’t deserve it with my comments. I should probably never use the term Europeans again, because it’s far too generalized and it makes it seem like an us vs. them situation, which is not my intention. But that was the most accurate term I could come up with.
I know that it’s not Americans who are claiming that we didn’t do shit in WWII and so on. I know it’s not Americans who are clutching their pearls when I declare that America has an overwhelming influence over global geopolitics. It’s people who are reading ulterior motives into my words that are actually coming from their own subconscious insecurities and biases.
Anyways, that was a fair and reasonable response on your part, and I commend you for it.
Not from sh.itjust.works
But I think that user (@DankOfAmerica@reddthat.com) just saw a bunch of posts from lemmygrad or hexbear and concluded that “Lemmy is Anti-American”, which is not true at all. Lemmy users criticize the US, but (other than the aforementioned tankies) aren’t hating on Americans. (At least, that’s my experience.)
Thanks for the transparency. As I’ve stated in other comments, I am American and I typically have better interactions here than on other social media sites. I really like seeing which community the individual is from and seeing the upvote/downvote ratio. If there is baseless criticism, most of the time it is either dropped when I ask them for more detail, or an actual discussion springs out of it. Finally, I’m a big fan of sh.itjust.works and happy to be here. I wouldn’t have any judgement to give; the internet is harder to tolerate everywhere as more users become bitter and/or hateful.
That’s good to hear, I’m sorry to bring this negativity into our community but I just needed to get it off my chest somehow.
I give you my full permission, as an installation wizard, to be a human being and interract with your community.
I’ve been looking at that meme for 5 hours now.
I keep trying to download it, but it resists me. Like Aslan, you can’t tame him…THE ROAD GOES EVER ON.
Your persistance is dope, and so is sharing. Here is a catbox link for you. https://files.catbox.moe/dlruv6.png
Dang, that is kind, preciate you.
I’m gonna echo this poster’s comment. Though I don’t agree with some of what you said (and do recognize that you were just needing a bit of validation/vent), overall, I love SJW and the work you do. We know it’s a thankless task, but just know that you provided a solid landing ground for the Reddit exodus and ppl are thankful for what you do 😊
just saw this scrolling on all or whatever, first i will say yeah, lemmy is fairly anti american, as an american, i hate the people here too, i really don’t see very much content where ppl are hyping their own countries though, i think the general sentiment is that we all are p fucked at the moment and i think most would agree that it comes down to corporatism, imperialism or nationalism, and great marketing that makes some people feel safe enough, secondly, i grew up with the explicit reverence of our isolationist war view as well and how cool and honorable it all ended up for us, 400k i will fucking laugh at for that one sorry, it really did suck all around, but later i was lucky enough to be taught just how america got fucked over with it and all the propaganda that came out of the aftermath, it was mainly economic w war reparation debt being cycled in a way that really fucked america into making their whole front the economic greatness that followed and it’s uncouth to talk about where any of the manufacturing power to create these cheap goods came from, but also third where i disagree, as someone raised on so many different alternate social media sites growing up, there’s always a more obscure image board, but to doubt the possibility of government media on your chosen board is irreverent to the point of sacrilegious, you’ll see it happen time and time again i’m sure as the way things go, grow up
I don’t think its Europeans being jealous but instead that Lemmy attracts the kind of Users who are more anti western/capitalistic (and the US is literally the definition of capitalism) and also users being dickheads about it. Just because Americans have to live and participate in a system that’s quite shit, that doesn’t mean that they are directly responsible for it and I think that this is something a lot of people forget.
I’m American, we are rapidly turning into this century’s Nazi Germany.
This is not a drill, pay attention to reality
Dude, you rock. Don’t even bow down to the negs that you are getting. You legit stood up for me even though you don’t agree with me. That’s an admirable, and increasingly rare, trait.
I’m American, and apparently very annoying to some, so I get my fair shair of hate. But at least when it’s thrown my way, I get that some people think I’m a dick.
But you have always been a straight up, no bullshit kind of guy. Honestly we need more admins like you.
You’re one of the reason that this instance is the best instance on Lemmy.
I look at a lot of your measured responses and always tell myself that I should respond to people that way. But I never do, cuz I also devolve and always end up saying shit like, “You keep crying. I’ll keep posting. Please block me if you don’t like me.” lmao
Stay strong, brother!
I look at a lot of your measured responses and always tell myself that I should respond to people that way. But I never do, cuz I also devolve and always end up saying shit like, “You keep crying. I’ll keep posting. Please block me if you don’t like me.” lmao
Quoting this for posterity.
My impression is that Lemmy has a sizable demographic of people whose communities have been banned from Reddit. I’m thinking hexbear especially, but a lot of .ml and others too. Several violently pro communism anti west groups. (I have a theory that they’ve been defusing to other instances too, but idk.) I think that’s part of the reason why you get so much America bad rhetoric.
That’s a shame, OP, you always seem like a pretty collected and calm voice, it’s disappointing to hear you’re a dang dirty fed/commie/fascist/Russian/Chinese/Soros/Thiel agent.
Neighbor: “He seemed so normal…” Background is full of barbie dolls hanging from the porch, the azaleas…
Nooo, not the Barbies 🥺
Oh, look who’s back! I thought you had left for good, that might have been part of why I’ve been so depressive lately 😅
Ha, I just retired from modding NCD, you’ll never be rid of me. In the immortal words of Baby Cookie, “I live inna walls, u gonna hafta get me out with a priest!”
Well this is awkward, I was actually talking to Margot… 😅. But I would be equally depressed if you were to leave, verity. Obligatory shout out to @Cracks_InTheWalls, another one of my favorites.
It’s nice to have funny and kind people on Lemmy. The battle for levity is never-ending, and more brave soldiers fall to misery with each passing day. But a well placed shitpost can usually revive our fallen comrades.
Word. Powerful message I’d like to see pinned everywhere at this time of year. Might help a user to put off doing something drastic for another day. Of course, I’d give such a message a Christian spin and ruin it. XD
Wait, you’re American?! Get outta here, you non-hoser! blocked
Kidding, of course - you’re one of my favourites too. Think you could’ve chosen your words more carefully in the OP exchange - jealousy is a bit of a trigger word, it’s more that the U.S.’ reputation internationally is … sketchy, even before the last periods of particular sketchiness. But some people just expand this to all individual Americans, which isn’t fair - most Americans I’ve met are just normal people just as bewildered as the rest of us are at the state of the world (and the U.S’ place in it).
Edit - story to illustrate my point. There’s a psych band from the U.S. that did a show here not too long ago. Started off by saying “We’re [band name I’ve forgotten] from the U.S.A.”. There was silence, then a few low-key, almost confused sounding 'woo’s. The lead then said “Woo? Hell, I wouldn’t woo at that right now.”
Feel this sentiment isn’t that uncommon.
Yeah jealousy was not the best word to use. And also it’s understandable that people don’t want to cheer on the US or Americans at all.
But on the other hand, the change that we are all looking for is going to have to ultimately come from Americans on some level. There isn’t any plausible way that another nation can violate the geopolitical status quo in a major way without the US leveraging its economic and military power to prevent things from being disrupted. That’s been proven many times by all of the interventions the US has done towards communist states and parties all around the world. Any kind of revolutionary political or economic movement in another country is likely to get sabotaged by American espionage, military force, or economic sanctions.
So at the end of the day, acting all angry towards Americans just reinforces the current system, because it causes people to dig in their heels and change from a progressive mindset to a defensive one. You need to have Americans on the inside to effect change, and Lemmings are the type of Americans who are already walking that path, only to get shoved off the path by tankies and others who continually abuse them, until they get sick of it and return to the corporate internet, where they can at least feel some superficial validation. In an ideal world, people wouldn’t be so weak-minded, but they are, and we need to understand that if we are interested in changing their opinions, and ultimately the changing the nature of the government that they allow to exist.
My advice is that we don’t always have to engage with with every opinion on the internet.
I especially consider this advice when an .ml or other far-left instance user posts tankie propaganda, rather than engage with it or make a meta post about it, just ignore it. Block the user and move on.
There are many many inherently negative and unhappy people online, not just here. These kind of people aren’t going to be swayed by random comments, they will just trap you in their negativity.
Everyone should empower themselves and use their individual moderation tools like block or mute, they may find they have a better experience. Not that we should block any one who disagrees with us, but there’s no reason to be brought down by someone who finds it their life mission to harass or bring down an entire group of people.
I imagine we would have seen something similar directed at Germany if the internet had been around during the rise of Hitler.
Or Russians if they invaded their neighbors
The attacks and humiliation are pretty much exactly what happened to Germany after WWI and lead directly to the rise of the Nazis. The Nazis convinced the Germans that the weimar Republic was too weak for putting up with BRAT from the treaty of Versailles, created scapegoats, and then offered simple solutions to deal with them. Almost exactly what is happening right now in the US.
See also: Palpatine and the galactic Republic.
I’m an American. I’m not one of the “good” Americans, though, since I’m disabled, not Christian, not capitalist, and not white. I’ve spent my whole life getting shit on as a third-class citizen by Americans steeped in American culture and public school education that has, at every turn, preached American exceptionalism and pulling oneself up by their bootstraps while totally ignoring every benefit offered to them and withheld from people like me.
I think that you’ve been lucky so far, but now that you’re being asked to sit the fuck down and listen while other people talk, you’re taking it badly. After a lifetime of privilege, it’s really easy to mistake being brought into line with everybody else’s equality for oppression; please don’t do that. It’s a bad look and sets you up to feel bad unnecessarily.
There are like 8 billion people on this planet and you’re one of about 330 million Americans. It’s pretty reasonable that your perspective isn’t the majority opinion, and that other people from other countries may also think their home is the best possible place to live and everyone else is an unlucky chump. Instead of dismissing all the critical comments as the kvetching of the jealous, unwashed masses outside your borders, it may help to look at them as nothing more than other people sharing their own viewpoints. Also, reading about events like Juneteenth, the MOVE bombing, the Kent State massacre, the Jackson State killings, and the Tulsa massacre may help you better understand why people from other places side eye Americans.
And seriously, the metric system is based on the physical properties of Earth and base 10 counting, not dead oppressors.
the metric system is based on the physical properties of Earth
Not really. Official units are defined in that kind of way (a metre used to be a certain fraction of the circumference of the Earth, though it’s now a certain amount of time travelled at light speed), but the definitions are arbitrary and used to justify defining the base unit how we want it. Metric’s superiority has nothing to do with metres being better than yards or kilogrammes being better than pounds. It’s this part:
and base 10 counting
As well as the fact that derived units all fit together nicely.
Woosh
I just see memes, no drama. Guess it depends on what you watch.
America is fun to make fun of, having hardly any vacations even, and thinking public Healthcare is communism. :) But I prefer them very much to Russia or China, that’s for damn sure. They may love their money but they are usually not kidnapping and killing their own people.
If they want to work all their life for their money, ok. :) I dream of getting out of the hamster wheel, personally.
