peaceful protest is allowed by the constitution because it is ineffective
a riot is the language of the unheard
nobody in the world has ever won their freedom by appealing to the moral sense of the people oppressing them
One of the factors in whether a nonviolent resistance movement can succeed or not is whether any state forces end up shifting loyalty. “Appealing to the moral sense of the people oppressing them” may be false if you’re just talking about whoever’s at the top, but it absolutely is a factor for the day-to-day bureaucrats and security forces. Nonviolent campaigns are more likely to cause these sorts of changes (particularly when violent crackdowns against nonviolent resistance backfires).
Consider the success of the following movements:
- Peoples Power Revolution (First one in 1986) - several military leaders defected from the Marcos regime
- Velvet Revolution (1989) - had several government officials defect
- Malagasy Political Crisis (2002) - Defense minister resigned, generals and military officers were split on who to support (source for this one, since the article is hard to find). In fairness, although this one would largely be classified as nonviolent, at the time, it was hard to say whether or not there would be any armed conflict (aside from some incidents with police attacking protesters early in the movement)
There’s several other cases of this happening over the past century, but I hope you get my point - nobody’s appealing to the guy on the throne, they’re appealing to all the other cogs in the machine.
History teaches us when protests and marches go unacknowledged riots and civil disobedience follow
And nothing changed.
Fascists do not care about protests. Never have. Never will.
Fascists also don’t allow fair elections if they can prevent them.
This is why it was so important for Americans to pull their heads out of their asses and make the obvious choice in November, instead of giving total control to fascists, making it WAY more likely for the next election to be fraudulent. Americans failed.
I’m going to let everyone reading this come to the obvious conclusion for what will end up needing to be done at this point.
And I got chastised for insulting people who are intolerant, both to tankies and fascists. These bullies only understand and respond to force. Give them what they want and they will wish to have stopped.
I’m gonna guess violent revolution with a side of political cleansing?
With entrenched long-term resistance against the occupying force.
Non-violence won’t effect lasting change. Violence against the oppressors and their enforcers is how to effect change. Hit them where they live and when they least expect it.
Non-violence has it’s place. But marches alone will not change anything. What the US needs is actual disruptions (i.e strikes and sabotages) as well as a credible radical flank
What US needs is some coherent political movement from anyone but monsters. All the disruptions in the world mean shit if there is no proper followup from a group of people who has their shit together. If literal magical aliens come tomorrow and organise a total proper strike that will change absolutely nothing because there is no group that can do demands and see that they are met. American left doesn’t exist, and those small groups that exist are unified only and exclusively by their visceral hatred of liberals and smaller but still visceral disdain of other small groups of American left, and American liberals are stunned and terrified and can’t do shit.
The protests can in theory let people form those needed connections, but doesn’t seem to be doing it quickly enough.
While media attention is often focused on actors acquiescing to Trump’s demands, in the streets the popular protest movement continues to push back against the administration with notable persistence over time.
No lie, that’s some good news.
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non violent protests only go so far, they would be scared if magats are also doing it, because how trigger finger they are. i think the strike that was truley effective, is the one they quashed, the railroad workers, the us is entirely dependant on this. Having these tiny protests, comparetively to what EUROPEans are doing.
Non violence brings people together so that violence can be enacted in a directed, efficient, and useful manner. So the least amount of incidental harm can be caused to those it’s not directed at. And those who it is directed at can see and feel it in ways that are the most impactful and visible.
Cause even if violence is enacted. If it’s not see far and wide, then it is little more than the tantrum of a child easily swept into their room and kept invisible from the public.
And awesome to see how effective it was, glad we got the regimen to rethink its policies… Oh wait they doubled down.
That’s why there needs to be a clear line that people know exists between performative protest and concrete protest.
For anyone confused:
Performative protests, like the No Kings protests, serve to:
- Get people energized to either take concrete action or donate/join organizations that can
- Reduce feelings of hopelessness/despair
- Make people more aware who were previously not following the news much if all
Concrete protests actually delay or stop the bad thing in question (e.g. blocking exits to ICE facilities)
A lot of people are hoping No Kings and similar protests will stop Trump. They won’t. Of course they won’t. But you can bet there’s a lot more people donating to charities that either legally fight the administration’s actions, or disrupt fascist policies on the ground, and a lot of people end up breaking off from these more liberal protests to later go to more concrete ones.
They’re not worthless, but nothing beats direct, concrete action.
https://beautifultrouble.org/toolbox/tool/dont-expect-a-concrete-outcome-from-a-symbolic-action
Performative protests are INCREASING my hopelessness and despair.
“WOW, biggest protest in the history of the U.S.? And did fuck all? Welp, if that can’t do it, nothing can. We’re fucked.”
Maybe it’s just me, but seeing regular ass people who were previously entirely disinterested in politics start marching in the street, actively educating themselves about the political landscape, and even seeing some break off into actual blockades of ICE facilities gives me a lot more hope than seeing people do nothing in the first place.
You have to remember, the average person mostly just cares about their family and personal financial circumstances, doesn’t take risks, and just reposts platitudes on facebook from time to time.
This is an improvement from the status quo, and any progress toward a better direction is good. I guarantee you, you will see many more people engaging in concrete actions as time goes on, because these sorts of protests help spur people into further action. Hell, we’ve already seen that happening.
These protests are gateways to concrete actions, not something that replaces them.
This is a very good way to explain it. We need both kinds, both are important.
What are you trying to accomplish here?
Everyone else: next one is September 1st.
https://www.fiftyfifty.one/I’ve been to all the 50501 protests in my area as a show of support, but I’m not trying to accomplish anything. I’m just of the opinion that protests without action accomplish nothing. I am all into exercises, some real civil disobedience.
Our great grandparents armed themselves and took over the factory floors. We need some of that energy.
Mr Trump thanks you for your support.
but I’m not trying to accomplish anything
This is the problem. Co-conspirators don’t grow on trees, and protests are for networking because online chatter is too obvious. If you’re going to protests, but not trying to accomplish anything by doing it, you’re doing it wrong.
I think he’s correct in stating this administration won’t care if we protest or how large it is. What we hope happens is that the protests get more momentum amongst the politically inert. That momentum could build us up to a general strike which would have more influence once the capitalists bottom line gets impacted. Maybe. IDK. This all sucks.
So double down right back at them. What are you doing to stop what’s happening? How else should we disrupt the regime’s efforts? What do you recommend? Or do you think shitting on people’s efforts is helpful somehow and will lead to a good outcome?
My mom was a huge speeder. She almost never went below 10 over the limit. Any time someone told her something along the lines of “The sign says 60, and you’re going 80.” she’d respond along the lines of “Well, good thing signs can’t stop me then, huh?”
She’d always slow down if she thought she saw a cop, though.
I always think about that when people talk about protests as if they’re the final step and not just the warning before a revolt. If you want self-centered people, like the ones running our government, to listen to your signs, you need them to fear what comes afterward if they don’t.
Interesting analogy, and a great point. I think it’s a lot like poker. They place their bets, we place our bets. They raise the stakes, we raise the stakes. Eventually one of us is either going to fold or we’re both going to end up going all in, and then we’ll finally end up seeing what our hands end up being once that happens. Are any of us prepared to fold on this? I’m not. Are they prepared to fold? I don’t know. Are they bluffing or are they holding all the right cards? I don’t know. If it comes to that, I guess we’ll find out.
That’s a great analogy as well, though with the stakes as high as they are, I don’t think either side is likely to fold. I think we’ll have to show our hands and see who wins. I’d love to hear that the government caved in to our demands and everything is fine, but if that doesn’t happen we need to understand that our work isn’t done until we get what we need, regardless of whether or not they decide to give it to us willingly.
Sweet, keep up brave Americans!
Good, and we will do it again and again!
And yet it seemed to change nothing
Everyone had a good time, then went home and nothing was changed.
Because we’re still all under the delusion that we live in a civilized country with laws and fairness.
I think if people here had ever actually been in a fascist dictatorship before, those marches wouldn’t have ended with everyone going home and sharing pictures on social media, it would have ended with capitol buildings set ablaze and an embarrassed and disheveled president being dragged out to a military tribunal or locked in a jail cell until trial.
You know, the thing that actually happens in places where this has happened before.
Eventually the fascist will infiltrate and incite violence so they can move in and kill.
And when they do, they need to be met by the same violence. It takes an awful lot to fight fascism, and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone, but that is where USA is. Innocent people are going to die before it gets better.
I hate reading the comments of all the capitulators here, carrying water for the regime by trying to discourage people with this constant drumbeat that protests are useless and ineffective. Bullshit. Are you magats? We’ve seen examples in history where protests and the movements they enabled have brought down those in power.
Protests are necessary but not sufficient in themselves. They’re how resistance starts and builds, not how it ends. Did you ever think it might take time to form the momentum to get to a critical mass, especially after decades of complacency? Real momentum and effective action was never going to happen immediately or in just weeks, or even in less than eight months which is where we are now. There are already people grouping and doing things other than protests (iykyk) and will be more, made possible by the support and cover that large numbers participating provide.
Troops are being moved into cities and they will keep being sent to more cities. Blue cities. There’s one reason for that–they want to intimidate people from turning out and use force to stop those who do. trump keeps saying so and plans are being implemented.
Point is, you may think it’s all useless and ineffective, but the regime obviously doesn’t. Why do you want to help them? If you think it’s hopeless, fine–stay home and doom scroll, but stop trying to dissuade others.
I wish I could sticky this.
Trump could get overthrown tomorrow and Lemmy Europeans would find a way to bitch about it
Is it Europeans? I thought the US left is way more puritanical than us
A ton of Europeans here hold the belief anything less than storming the street and shooting people isn’t a worthy way to protest in America and they will tell you as much.
Not really, personally I and a lot of Europeans hold the belief that in order for anything to be done you actually need to be doing those things. Sorry I can’t share your happiness about a bunch of people walking around the street that one time, while your child rapist in chief rapes both you and the rest of the world.
Don’t like criticism of your inaction, actually do something about it.Okay, so how many people have you killed to advance your political position?
It’s a bit telling that the only way to advance your political position you can think of is killing people.
Not really, personally I and a lot of Europeans hold the belief that in order for anything to be done you actually need to be doing those things.
Not just Europeans on this team. Watching from Canada and being told nothing can be done but a street march on a sunny Saturday while our own governing schmucks start instituting laws to appease and move our country toward fascism on the lead of the fuckers south of us, is god damn terrifying.
I won’t be silent about it either. About 'murica or Canada. 'muricuns are letting a fascist dictator control them and affect lots of others around the world. Canadians are allowing our PM to do the same just much slower and with more smiles and handshakes.
Yeah, probably. They’ve been suppressed for so long that they’re itching to use violent tactics when they don’t really understand how violence is a careful, strategic tool for the left.
Damn those Europeans, always bitching about Trump being overthrown. Well, he isn’t overthrown actually, instead he has more and more power by the day and Americans don’t do anything effective about it. And those pesky Europeans keep bitching about things that happening instead of being happy about imaginary things that aren’t happening.
I agree. The negativity in this forum has utility beyond providing a stupid counterpoint. It also saturates attention and screenspace in long threads of people arguing nonsense. The goal is disruption, and in a space far from corporate control like Reddit, yet somewhat under-moderated, it’s alarmingly effective. At worst, there’s an acutual playbook for this exact thing.
Troops are being moved into cities and they will keep being sent to more cities.
Which is important. Make them want to cover every city in America. The problem for them is that they can’t. There aren’t enough regular troops, National Guard, and ICE agents put together to make it work. They’ll be spread too thin.
That really highlights the importance of protests. If it was just New York it would fail. If it was just Chicago it would fail. If it were just LA it would fail. If we signal that we’re all going to work together on this, they can’t possibly do it.
They think that going out and shooting Republicans will help. Because of course the ones with control over the military will be easily brought down by randos with guns.
Depends on the ones you are shooting. If you kill the 80 year old Republican who has barely any cash? No it won’t do shit. If you snipe Charlie Kirk or a senator, then yeah cause it breaks the illusion of their immunity.
Violence is a tool and much like any tool you need to know how to use it. Taking out the propaganda welps and the money movers would be a good first step. It’s also a lot harder to work against if done with variable tactics since asymmetrical warfare is a bitch to work against.
Chill with the fedposting. You know you’re not actually anonymous here, right? You’re putting yourself at risk. People have had the FBI knocking on their door for less.
If done in a well-organized strategic manner, agreed! But somehow I don’t think that’s how it would go down.
You don’t have to be well-organized nor strategic. Being chaotic and uncaught often works. I listen a lot to Behind the Bastards and Lions Led by Donkeys. It has given me the impression that effectiveness of a given behavior is a horseshoe, where the ends of the shoe have greater impact than a balanced style.
uncaught
That word is doing a LOT of heavy lifting. But I agree. If only it were easy to do.
Surprisingly, it happens more often than one expects. Just listen to the podcasts I mentioned, all sorts of people, good and bad…usually the bad, get away with being weird in all the ways. Audacity is bit of a cheat code, because most people don’t want to disrupt their daily life. This cedes agency to people who do things.
Only need the organization level of a WW2 resistance cell or an IRA cell. Squad level is more than large enough to execute effective operations on a strategic level so long as said cells aren’t entirely singular, 5 cells each with 5 people for example even when working independently could probably bring a cities infrastructure to its knees let alone kill random politicians and their buddies.
Needs to be done weekly
I think that peaceful and defiant protest are the anvil and hammer of social reform. Without each other, it is hard to change society into a more useful shape. These two wings are part of the same animal, and only work if they cooperate.
The Black Panthers were great, because they created social programs like feeding schoolchildren, while offering physical protection to the people under their care. We need Rainbow Panthers to help support the MLKs and Malcoms of our day.
It’s important to note how the Black Panthers used “violence”. There were very few incidents where they actually fired their guns, and when they did, they were arguably baited into doing it by the FBI and local cops.
Their best tactic was just hanging around with an AK on their back while a cop did their racial profiling thing to somebody else. They’d keep a book of laws handy and give the person advice from the sidelines. If they didn’t have a gun, the cop would likely have found some pretext to arrest them and that’d be it. With a gun, the cop thinks twice and puts up with it. It wasn’t there to actually be fired, but to make sure everyone behaved themselves.
This was so effective they changed California’s open carry law to stop it. It’s estimated that there were only around 100 Black Panthers at the time.
That is why I use the word “defiance”. It is not violence, it is just a refusal to be bullied. We should put forth our own words to describe things, not let the media paint our movements in the light that they prefer.
Now if we could just repeat that success consistently.
Next time on a weekday, please.
Yeah preferably the first Tuesday of November. Maybe we can give that a try.
Coordinate another date, and I’ll participate in that one too.
The fifty fifty one movement has been organizing protests usually about monthly and you can find them pretty easily on their site
Next widespread one I see planned is 9/1 for Labor Day.
Next one is Sept 1st.
No Kings III
If NYC residents could do one on 9/11 that would get some solid coverage. Fill the memorial. Remind people Saudi Arabia is a part owner of this regime with Russia.
Putin, the House of Saud, and Netanyahu all have serious hooks into the orangeboi regime - and to a lesser but still significant extent, the vast majority of the entire US political apparatus and media sphere.
There’s not a single one listed for Wisconsin?!?
Be the change you wish to see in the world.
I don’t like how two of the protests they’ve scheduled have been on holiday weekends when people are traveling or have big plans and cannot safely participate (Easter weekend and now Labor Day weekend). The No Kings protest was huge partly because it wasn’t on a holiday weekend. It seems very counter intuitive to have them on holiday weekends.
Thank you!
Signed up but didn’t like idea of giving my name and email to do so.
Then don’t to do so.
Thank you for saying it. I’m not putting my name on a list, but I’ll certainly participate. I bet we aren’t the only ones. Whatever the signup count, it’s probably at least double that willing to also take action.
No need to sign up. I sure as hell don’t. The less data out there on me the better IMO.
