Hi folks! I’m here with another idea. Let’s make an amazon alternative. I know! I know! That was asked for a couple times already but lets discuss some details.
Amazon is basically glorified dropshipping by now. What if we just made federated (not sure if over activitypub would work) ads and sales, powered by fediseer (the “trust” network of the fediverse).
Example 1: So you buy at toms groceries, you trust them. they have experience with tina’s hardware store and they trust them. so you can buy both toms and tinas wares on both sites.
Example 2: So for example, I run a small business that sells computers. You run a small business that sells mice and keyboards. I have worked with you before so I mark you as trusted in my local website, which federates with yours, showing your products in my shop. If a customer buys my computer and buys your keyboard on top, my site sends you a buy order with customer address and payment. I get a small fee for my electricity of say 1%.
Can someone try and poke holes in this idea? It feels like this could work!
Have a nice weekend.
So in simple terms, you propose to build a mom-and-pop shop and have it act like a global player like Amazon?
Congrats, it does not happen very often I sit in a chair and stare at the screen in disbelief!
Whatever your idea of a mom and pop shop and acting like a global player is, I’m not thinking of anything like this. As I mentioned. This already exists. The idea is to automate and streamline some parts, basically.
Open Bazaar
you are not proposing a federated amazon, this is just federated ads and/or reviews.
how to process payments? how to ship goods? how to handle refunds? how to handle contestations?
please you can’t just make anything federated. this protocol is built for social media and struggles to take over that sphere, we should focus on one thing rather than throwing random stuff at the wall hoping it sticks (cough federated tik tok cough)
Bittorrent is federated streaming video before it was cool.
God, if only someone had invented an internet-native form of money in 2008
A lot of the terrifying aspects of slinging money around that people are talking about in this thread actually do become terrifying, once Bitcoin and friends are your platform. Fraud? Refunds? Someone hacked your server and stole your wallet? All that stuff is now 100% your problem, there is absolutely no way to “undo” if something wrong happens, and no infrastructure in place to handle any of it or any professionals with already a simple system in place for it. Or, if there is an infrastructure, it is based on a shady company which is orders of magnitude more sketchy and predatory than the (already pretty sketchy and predatory) banking system.
I actually think 3% is roughly a fair fee for the processor to charge you, in exchange for agreeing to worry about all of that nonsense on your behalf so you can just collect the money. For in-person transactions, it’s mostly just a predatory rent payment, but for online transactions where the possibility for malfeasance is amplified, it makes sense to me.
Wow. Took a while to get a naysayer in here.
Sorry mate, I can do whatever I like. You should visit a hackspace at some point. You would be shocked how many people there give a crap about what you think they can do.
But on a more productive note:
I have not thought out the whole process yet. Otherwise I would not ask here but show a product. There are ways to work payments for open source already. Payments are limited to credit cards, bank transfer, crypto, paypal, stripe, etc as far as I know. So I would suggest the “main shop”, that the customer orders in, would be the one booking and sending the other funds to the other shops the customer ordered in. The delivery would be standard dropshipping (the buy order goes to the other shop and they are responsible for delivery, same as amazon does for many shops now). Contestations is a good point. They would also need to be delivered to the dropshipped company and the payment contested as well. From my current pov this sounds entirely doable.
So if you just drop that condescending tone you can see we actually can be productive here. Do you have any more points we can work through?
how to ship goods?
Part of their point was that Amazon doesn’t handle shipping for a lot of the things they sell. If you want to, they can store everything within their massively-optimized operation and ship it for you for a small-enough-to-be-compelling fee, but you don’t have to. You can also just list your stuff there and ship it to customers when they order it.
how to process payments?
This is trivial. The modern financial internet makes it extremely easy.
how to handle refunds? how to handle contestations?
This is a fair point, probably the biggest issue that could be a stumbling block. One fair counterpoint is that Amazon’s handling of these situations is often pure uncaring dogshit, so if you’re doing a bad job at it, you’re still no different than Amazon (and potentially better than, since it is hard to see how someone could be any worse.)
It’s not totally simple, and you have to do some real actual work to solve it, but it’s also not like going to the moon. It’s solvable.
Considering your answer to payments solution was "This is trivial.’ it sounds like a) You’ve never run a business and b) you’re more interested in fantasizing than a realistic conversation.
I have run several businesses, some of them on this micro-scale. That’s how I know that part is trivial.
You can literally set it up for yourself for free, if you want to see: https://stripe.com/
Pretty much what they’re doing all over this thread.
Like some people can only see the glass half full. Few have the guys to look at both the fullness and the emptyness equally.
Amazon doesn’t handle shipping for a lot of the things they sell.
This is false. Very few products sold via Amazon are shipped independently from Amazon’s logistics services.
Do you have numbers for this? I tried to find some, and couldn’t.
I love the idea of federate Amazon. The obvious choice would be to implement Monero as the “reserve currency” integrate with decentralise xmr exchanges and escrow services. U would do some sort of seller raring from consumers giving reviews tied to a purchase transaction on the blockchain.
Also imagine the possibilities if for services could federate (most likely only with eachother). If this gets built it will be the final form of the free market. No borders no laws no restrictions no censorship no taxes. It would be chaos. The end of wall street as we know it, and from its ashes shall rise a libertarian phoenix.
I like your enthusiasm. Not too sure if I would go so far but I can see how one would think about it this way. No disagreeing from my side. I’ll keep monero and other things like gnu taler in mind for a payment system. Thanks for participating.
Shilling your bags as usual. Crypto-scammers are all so predictable.
Why in god’s name do you need monero to buy groceries or even computer parts?
Monero does a couple things that no other currency can do.
- It cannot be manipulated like fiat as its decentralised
- It cannot be frozen owning means u own it
- Ur payments are anonymous so ur purchases are not being mined by privacy invasive data brokers and insurance agencies
- Transaction fees are a fraction of a all existing currency cos free market
No other crypto or fiat can do this. It is objectively the best currency by all metrics. I challenge you to find one metric by which it is not objectively better (except its not widely used by normies).
Don’t see why I need this to buy groceries. Shilling bags as I said originally.
I don’t believe in [1], crypto market are heavily manipulated.
[2] and [3] are not desirable in my view. Don’t forget, not everyone lives in the US and many people have experience and perspectives that likely you haven’t though of.
Most crypto markets yes they are manipulated because their value is purely speculative and not tied to physical goods. Xmr is used extensively across the dark web tiring it to real world goods stabilising its value.
U think the government or a bank should have the right to just freeze ur money whenever they want or feel like it? U want ur entire purchase history being sold to databrokers who will use it to profile you so they can sell u crap and up ur insurance rates to the maximum point possible.
If u looked at my profile u would have noticed an Aussie flag so ur american argument doesn’t work.
U still haven’t found a metric by which xmr is worse.
They’re also transphobic and where whinging on one post about being censored
Apparently consequences for being a bigot is censorship for them
Wow look at u go. Following me around the fediverse spouting off with ur hate. U support ur right to do with ur own body whatever the fuck u want. Please explain how that is in any way bigoted?
This is some Azula-level irony.
OK Crypto Scammer
Also, FUCK TRANSPHOBES
Example 1: So you buy at toms groceries, you trust them.
[citation needed]
I mean, if their content was signed you could verify the authenticity of the certificate. Usually the business name appears in the cert.
No I mean, I don’t “trust” a groceries store. I only use them to trade for groceries, and only use cash when doing so.
Just because I use someone doesn’t mean I trust them. Even more: just becaue I trust Alice, that doesn’t mean I trust Bob by transitivity.
in that case you might be part of the problem atm. of course, if you buy groceries, you trust the grocery store to not sell you poisoned stuff. and if your friend asks you where to buy groceries, you recommend those you have good experiences with.
That said, trust is on its way out in our society but that is a political problem, not a technical. i can solve technical problems.
Closest we’ve got right now is Flohmarkt, right? If they haven’t already been working on some kinda trust system, they’re probably taking code contributions. I saw somewhere else somebody suggested Loops integration for it, so they could have something like the tiktok shop. I mean capitalism is garbage, but unfortunately we do currently gotta buy stuff occasionally, and it would be nice if that experience sucked less.
Flohmarkt is nice if a little small atm but of course it is very new. I’ll check if it would work to implement their api in a normal website/shop. because my point also is to make people independent from each other so that no single entity can control them. in this case I mean if flohmarkt got “outlawed” for example because lobbyists and such, websites would prevail, i hope.
Thanks for participating.
Flohmarkt is nice if a little small atm but of course it is very new.
Philosophically, the classified ad model (a bit like Etsy or eBay without auctions, where you are just an introduction service) seems more in keeping with the Fediverse and has a lot less hassles than trying to replicate Amazon with all it’s storage and shipping.
I’ll check if it would work to implement their api in a normal website/shop.
What I’d like to see is more seamless integration of !flohmarkt@lemmy.ca into other Fediverse services.
So someone has a blog for their writing on WordPress or Ghost but can run a sidebar or footer with links to Flohmarkt where people can buy a signed copy or special edition directly. Or you have it working with !neodb@lemmy.zip where users can read a review of a film and click through to see if anyone has a copy of the Blu-ray on Flohmarkt.
Equally, !friendica@lemmy.ca is a kind of Facebook replacement and Flohmarkt could slot in there as a Marketplace replacement.
In general we probably need more plug-ins in Fediverse services to help integrate things more tightly and Flohmarkt seems the kind of thing that would work well when slotted into a lot of other existing services.
if flohmarkt got “outlawed” for example because lobbyists and such
That would be very difficult to do with a decentralised service.
I agree on all points except the last. It is no problem to outlaw something and disrupting fediverse instances is no problem either. With websites that is a whole different ballgame because they are manifold.
Instances are websites.
No, they are not.
Instances have websites but the bulk of the fediverse is done on a completely different layer, even a different port.
Fediverse instances are clusters of microservices. They usually include a database, a frontend and a backend. The backend is where the api is and where federation requests come in and go out. Thats where the magic happens.
If you want to test this, just disable the webserver (frontend) and watch the instance still working. You can also see this working when you look at the different frontends of some bigger lemmy instances for example.
That’s true of lots of non-federated sites. Anything with an API…
We coiod think of an integration with all main ecommerce platforms like:
WooCommerce X Cart PrestaShop OpenCart osCommerce Joomla Zen Cart VirtueMart (Joomla) Drupal Commerce (Drupal) KonaKart PimCore
Oooh, awesome, thanks for this link!
So online farmers/flea market?
that is online farmers and flea market? feel free to post a link
flea market
I really like the idea of a grassroots Amazon competitor. That said,
You need to have a high level of trust. A federated network of shady scams that just take your money and send you nothing half the time is not going to fly. Is there a vetting process, who controls that process, how’s all that work. If its ‘good seller’ reviews, how are those stats protected from manipulation.
You need to have extreme ease of use. UI barriers that seem trivial to developers can sink a platform.
If there are problems solvable by centralization, maybe that could be done as a cooperative organization which devs and vendors can join and run democratically.
I wonder if you can ‘outsource’ trust by relying on payment systems? If a seller uses stripe and scams some users, stripe would freeze their account right?
Correct. Someone orders something, it doesn’t arrive, they dispute the charge with their CC company, their CC company and Stripe talk to one another and get the merchant’s side of the story, and basically unless there is some pretty massive indication that the buyer is lying or has a consistent pattern of this or something, the buyer gets their money back. If that happens a bunch, the seller loses their Stripe account.
The system is heavily biased in favor of the buyer, which for the most part works out, because most of the fraud exists on the seller end. And on the whole the fact that 99% of people on both sides are not cockheads trying to abuse the system, is what makes it all work reasonably well.
Thank you for participating in this discussion. Happy to hear someone thought about this.
The high level of trust is important, yes. My idea is to either plain use or build something similar to the fediseer. I’m an instance admin and I use fediseer for trust management. This means that instances can trust other instances (manually!) and are responsible if these instances turn out bad. That means if you have a friend you know personally and trust, you would recommend them to the fediseer. this friend in turn would recommend another friend and so on. that is a chain of trust. so far this works wonderful.
Some things could also be solved by building communities or unions like normal companies do. But of course this should be limited to federating companies.
Thanks for asking questions. It helps me think.
Another issue might be, how do you deal with people selling illegal items/services? How do you avoid “Silk Road” style liability? Would there be a blacklist that someone running an instance could use so they don’t have to vet everyone they are federated with?
amazons true strength is ultimately in their logistics. Amazon itself isn’t a bad idea in theory but the execution is poor because of cutthroat capitalism exploiting workers and privatization. Ultimately the idea of sellers being able to ship their goods to communal warehouses for fulfillment should be a service that is nationalized. The marketplace can be federated, sure
communal warehouses for fulfillment should be a service that is nationalized.
Domestic terrorism vibes here
That is a very constructive idea! Thanks. The warehouses can also be collectively bought/built imho but I’m not totally opposed to state owned. Everything is better than techno feudalist owned.
Collective buying and building of such a project means that there is not universal standard or regulation and the project falls apart when there is disagreement. Given the scale this is inevitable
Look at lemmy for example: most servers play nicely but occasionally you get the server like exploding heads that cause the overwhelming majority to defederate
Amazon has 300 warehouses across the US and another 175 worldwide according to a quick web search. That’s a lot of sites that have to play nice with each other. If even one of them starts having poor practices, doing something offensive, something disruptive, etc. it may cause a lot of the others to not want to work with them. If you have one that is especially shit stirring then it may cause a huge portion of the network to cut ties.
But unlike lemmy now it’s not just some social media where you jump to a new server. Now companies have their products held hostage. Now people in that region potentially have services significantly disrupted. Now your whole system is undermined and a bezos type can swoop in to prove his is much better and more trustworthy.
A state controlling it (which would inherently happen with collective ownership if done correctly, a pseudo state would be created given the scale) would introduce regulation and enforcement to ensure consistency in operation. It is then the responsibility of the constituents to hold representatives accountable to ensure regulations and enforcement are meaningful
Another point here, Amazon has really thin profit margins on their core business (not counting AWS, etc. Just the online shopping). If it weren’t absolutely gargantuan, it would fail. It’s only profitable because of the logistical efficiency it has achieved, exploitation (of workers, cheap goods from China, etc.), and absolutely massive economies of scale. Similar to Walmart.
Recommended reading: People’s Republic of Walmart. All for nationalizing - would be better for everyone.
I think the closest you can come is open source an entire business, from business plans, architecture, systems, payment processing, etc.
You don’t seem to understand the retail operations of Amazon. They provide logistics and marketing services to retailers, they also directly compete against those retailers because those retailers can’t do better at logistics and marketing without using Amazon’s services.
What about the online food ordering market. I reckon that might be an easier first step than consumer products. Here in the Netherlands JustEatTakeaway has a market share of around 90% and requires restaurants to give them a 14% provision. Restaurants don’t have much of a choice, if they’re not on there they miss out on a huge part of the market, it’s like they don’t exist. Why don’t restaurants unite and develop a FOSS protocol that let’s them federate, so the consumer has a central place to browse the food delivery market, but simultaneously makes the providers independant because they can run their own instance if they please. Have these types of ideas been pitched to branche organizations? Restaurants have a clear interest to develop this to free themselves from the platforms with a monopolistic venture-capital-driven strategy.
I fully agree that this would be a valid application. The reason any company doesnt adopt such strategies is the cost of pioneering it. Most companies who spearhead such an idea want it to pay off -> proprietary. Also most people are specialized in their industry. Developing an app is not native to food industry for example.
Or you can just buy from other online retailers.
except you cant. not in most real life situations. I personally made it a habbit to not shop at amazon and the time and money I “waste” for shopping elsewhere is insane. If you come with “you’re just bad at searching then” I will block you without comment.
It is hard to shop at other places. I just always give other places a chance to win my business. It keeps some money from Amazon.
Exactly. And that is by design. We need legislation for that but we also need a working system to compete if possible (imo). If I didnt have to use search engines all the time to get my products that would be awesome. I’d like to go to a site I trust because I worked with them in the past and buy stuff from them while actively widening my scope of trust without having to navigate potential scams. Example: amazon takes care of scams (or paypal for that matter) and so should a federating shop. thats why trust in federation is very important.
Lol
Ideas are cheap. This is the third post like this I’ve seen in two weeks. Build it.
