Framework releasing a Mac Mini was certainly not on my bingo card for this year.
I wasn’t prepared. I’ve been eyeing a mini for a while and this thing kills it on value compared to what I would get in a similar price point.
What alternatives were you considering, and how does the product from Framework compare?
Ok, should I know who framework is? I’ve been a PC gamer since forever and I’ve never heard of this company.
.
They make repairable laptops.
repairable and upgradable*
I know it’s an absolutely banal nitpick, but I think it’s unfortunately a revelation in the current laptop market that ~90% of a laptop stays good for a really really long time, and the other 10% can be upgraded piecemeal as the need arises. Obviously this was never news to the Desktop world, but laptop manufacturers got away with claiming this was impossible for laptops in the name of efficiency and portability.
This is a standard a370 mini PC at a high price.
There’s Beelink, Minisforum, Aoostar and many others.
The AI max chips are a completely different platform, more than double the physical silicon size of most minipc chips.
Most miniPC vendors have already announced AI Max products:
https://www.gmktec.com/blog/gmktec-a-global-leader-in-ai-mini-pcs-unveils-the-amd-ryzen-ai-max-395
But Framework released it now.
Nope, they’re just available to pre-order with an estimate of shipping from Q3 this year. They’re not shipping now.
I just checked, the gmktec link above says that their product is supposed to ship in Q1-Q2 this year, earlier than framework’s.The person above you confidently posted that it’s shipping now and got an up vote despite being wrong.
I never understand people who confidently post wrong things that are easily googlable.
Holy moly this is awesome! I am in for the 128GB SKU.
That’s 96GB of usable VRAM! And way more CPU bandwidth than any desktop Zen chip.
I know people are going to complain about non upgradable memory, but you can just replace the board, and in this case it’s so worth it for the speed/power efficiency. This isn’t artificial crippling, it physically has to be soldered, at least until LPCAMM catches on.
My only ask would be a full X16 (or at least a physical X16/electrical x8) PCIe slot or breakout ribbon. X4 would be a bit of a bottleneck for some GPUs/workloads… Does Strix Halo even support that?
What’s a SKU? Google just says “Stock Keeping Unit”, but I don’t think that’s correct in this context.
Basically another word for ‘Product Number’ or ‘P/N’ for short.
As others said.
In this context it would be one of the CPU/Memory combinations framework offers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_Ryzen_processors#Strix_Halo_(Zen_5/RDNA3.5/XDNA2_based)
In this context, SKU refers to a variant of this product. That is the correct acronym as I understand
its used to mean a new product that you specifically have to keep track of. e. g if you found framework desktops in a store, it wouldnt all be sold under 1 sku. all 3 ram capacities would be 3 different bar codes
a new product
not only new
It’s correct. A product with various options will have each combination of options under a different SKU. It’s a singular number that identifies an exact version of a product.
I understand the memory constraints but it does feel weird for framework, is all I have to say. But that’s also the general trajectory of computing from what it seems. I really want lpcamm to catch on!
Apparently Framework did try to get AMD to use LPCAMM, but it just didn’t work from a signal integrity standpoint at the kind of speeds they need to run the memory at.
Sounds like it doesn’t bode well for the future of DIMMs at all, TBH.
You have a DIMM view of the future.
My AM5 system doesn’t post with 128GB of 5600 DDR5 at higher than 4400 at JEDEC timings and voltage. 2 DIMMs are fine. 4 DIMMs… rip. So I’d say the present of DIMMs is already a bit shaky. DIMMs are great for lots of cheap RAM. I paid a lot less than what I’d have to pay for the equivalent size of RAM in a Framework desktop.
Eventually most system RAM will have to be packaged anyway. Physics dictates that one pays a penalty going over pins and mobo traces, and it gets more severe with every advancement.
It’s possible that external RAM will eventually evolve into a “2nd tier” of system memory, for background processes, spillover, inactive programs/data, things like that.
That would be fine. But as long as it can use it as RAM and not just a staging ground.
It’s already fourth tier after L1, L2, L3 caches.
Maybe something like optane will make a comeback. Having 16gb of soldered RAM and 500gb of relatively slow, but inexpensive optane RAM would be great.
DRAM is so cheap and ubiquitous that they will probably keep using that, barring any massive breakthroughs. The “persistence after power-off” is nice to have, but not strictly needed.
How did you get from 128 GiB of RAM, as the reported specs, to 96 VRAM ?
“VRAM” has to be allocated to the integrated GPU in the BIOS, and reports (and previous platforms) suggest the max one can allocate is 96GB, or 3/4 of it.
but you can just replace the board
The board is like, the whole computer tho. The mobo, CPU, GPU and RAM are all the same component. It’s everything Framework is supposed to oppose. That took them what, 4 years? to throw away their values?
It’s what happens when you go through rounds of funding.
They also announced three other products (one new, two refreshes) which are still being actively developed and are fully-modular devices at low cost. If they’re “throwing away their values,” they’re not doing it very well.
It’s never a single step process. These things happen slowly, bit by bit. It’s the beginning of the end.
If this is it happening bit by bit, then why is most of the news about them doubling down on their principles? Why did they make clear what they were doing and why, and talk about their work to make it modular, instead of trying to hide it or sweep it under the rug?
This sort of doomerism and slippery slope purity test nonsense is exactly why niche companies that do what people value eventually go under, leaving us with just the awful ones. This isn’t a betrayal of their values. This isn’t the beginning of the end. It’s just a choice they made, and all of the other choices they made confirm that they’re still doing stuff the way they were.
Edit: I’m not saying you have to buy it, or that you shouldn’t make clear to the company you don’t think this comports with what you want them to value. But writing them off forever based on this one product seems so self-defeating.
If this is it happening bit by bit, then why is most of the news about them doubling down on their principles?
Its called marketing.
Why did they make clear what they were doing and why
…I don’t understand the question. Why wouldn’t they? Why does being clear about why they’ve abandoned their mission excuse anything?
exactly why niche companies that do what people value
That’s the opposite of what’s happening though.
Its called marketing.
They’re actually building those devices. It’s not marketing if you can buy them.
Why wouldn’t they?
Because most companies do. They gloss over the shifts so that they can focus on other stuff.
Why does being clear about why they’ve abandoned their mission excuse anything?
Because it shows that they haven’t. They talked about the work they put into trying to make it modular.
That’s the opposite of what’s happening though.
For this one product, maybe. But again, this was one of the four products they announced yesterday.
It’s not marketing if you can buy them.
…yes? It is? Why would you market a product that no one can buy? LOL
Because most companies do.
And that means they should?
They talked about the work they put into trying to make it modular.
“Aw sorry, we really tried to make something” doesn’t cut it. If you can’t do it, don’t do it. Simple as.
But again, this was one of the four products they announced yesterday.
How many products that are antithetical to their entire stated purpose do they need to make before you see that as a red flag?
Lmao the news about this desktop is strangling their website to the point of needing a 45 minute waiting list
Guilty. This thing came out at the perfect time and I was considering building my own or a Mac mini but this has 95% of what I’m looking for for less than a spec compromised Mac mini. So I preordered. And I kept hitting refresh lol.
I always think the Mac mini is just a bit too mini. It’s a desktop so it’s not exactly going to be moved around a lot so it doesn’t need to be quite that tiny and this thing is a good compromise between still being small but without being so small that it offers no upgradability.
And I know Apple says otherwise but surely that thing must get thermally throttled at some point.
They did announce three major products today.
Yeah that touchscreen tablet convertible machine is what has me psyched. I’m not the target for it, and already own a 16, but I could see that thing selling well. I honestly think they came out with the desktop because they just kinda felt they needed a desktop.
I have a 16 and a 13, I thought I’d give away the 13 when I got the 16 but I keep using the 13 as well cause of how portable it is. Lot nicer to lounge about with the 13 than the 16.
I might get the 12 to replace my 13 and use it for drawing practice and web browsing. Performance wise it’d be a downgrade from my 1280p but I don’t really need the performance.
The Lemmy Lick strikes again!
I visited their website literally within about 10 minutes of them announcing the product and I had to wait 8 minutes to get in.
If framework has, or had, one problem, it was that the main appeal of their products was the repairability, the products themselves were only okay in terms of specs. Well now they have really decent specs as well.
I could absolutely see schools wanting to deploy these to their students.
I really hope this won’t be too expensive. If it’s reasonably affordable i might just get one for my living room.
they already announced pricing for them.
1099 for the base ai max model with 32gb(?), 1999 for fully maxed with the top sku.
$1k for the base isn’t horrible IMO, especially if you compare it to something like the mac mini starting at $600 and ballooning over $1k to increase to 32GB of “unified memory” and 1tb of storage.
I get why people are mad about the non-upgradable memory but tbh I think this is the direction the industry is going to go as a whole. They can’t get the memory to be stable and performant while also being removable. It’s a downside of this specific processor and if people want that they should just build a PC
And the “base” of this is physically more like a cut down M4 Pro than a regular M4.
i actually think its not the worst priced framework product ironically. Prebuilt 1k pcs tend to be something like a high end cpu + 4060 desktop anyways, so specs wise, its relatively speaking, reasonable. take for example cyberpower pcs build here, which is of the few oems iirc Gamers Nexus thinks doesn’t charge as much of a SI tax on assembly. it’s acutally not incredibly far off performance wise. I’d argue its the most value Framework product per dollar ironically.
Prebuilt 1k pcs tend to be something like a high end cpu + 4060 desktop anyways
That value proposition evaporates when you factor in repairability and upgradability of those prebuilts.
and if you actually want a PC for gaming on, a discrete gpu (eg: 7900xt) is going to be at least 3x faster at throwing polygons around than the 8060S. This thing is definitely better for AI workloads than gaming.
Bummer
With a cheeky comparison to Apple’s nearly $5k offering.
I don’t get the point. Framework laptops are interesting because they are modular but for desktop PCs that’s the default. And Framework’s PCs are less modular than a standard PC because the RAM is soldered
That makes no sense - that’s more like Apple then…
I don’t know if it’s the case, but modular IO on PC maybe nice.
Xbox with the ability to run windows is what the article is basically saying.
Or linux.
This thing makes a whole lot of pricey workstations obsolete.
I think I need to give Linex a try again. I tried ubuntu in 2008 but found it too difficult to do the things I was used to doing on windows. I now have a bit more coding experience and will probably pick it up quicker
It’s gotten so much better since 2008. Ubuntu is good for servers, but probably not what you’re looking for on a desktop. And you really don’t need to have a coding background to use it, though it also depends on your use case.
I just recall trying to put music on an ipod in ubuntu was a nightmare
Probably still is, lol.
Apple stuff works best in the Apple ecosystem, though most of what works on Windows can work on linux.
You don’t have to pick and choose, you can dual boot.
But the only thing I boot Windows for these days is gaming and Microsoft Teams. Linux has come a long way since 2008.
teams online client is good enough, too
What kind of workstations?
Any that needs a lot of VRAM and good CPU performance on a budget, but not necessarily the real time performance of a W7900 or whatever.
Love the downvotes for saying something that is in the article! Feels just like reddit!
So… now Framework Corp is selling non-upgradable hardware?
I dunno. Conceptually I want to like Framework. But their pricing means it is basically never worth buying and upgrading versus just buying a new laptop (seriously, run the numbers. You basically save 10 bucks over two generations of shopping at Best Buy). But they also have a system that heavily encourages people to horde spare parts rather than just take it to an e-waste disposal facility/bin.
You get fast memory as a result. If you don’t care about the fast memory, there’s no good reason to buy this, with their motherboard. There’s a use case this serves which can’t be served by traditional slotted memory and the alternative is to buy 4-5 NVIDIA 3090/4090/5090. If you want that use case, then this is a pretty good deal.
And your phone isn’t repairable because it needs to be water proof. Your earbuds because of power efficiency. Etc.
Also, I suggest watching this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3zB9EFntmA.
But, to be clear: I am actually not as opposed to the idea of soldered ram when you have “an excuse”. Same with phones. But framework is a brand that tries to build itself on minimizing e-waste and maximizing repairability and… hey, at least we can still swap out the side panel on their prebuilt!
As far as I read LPCAMM in its current state does not work for this. The electrical noise is too high. These things aren’t the same. A repairable waterproof phone can be made without glue by making it a bit thicker. In the case of RAM today, we’re hitting fundamental physics limitations with speed of electricity and noise. At this point the physical interconnect itself becomes a problem. Gold contact points become antennas that induce noise into adjacent parts of the system. I’m not trying to excuse Framework here. I’m saying that the difficulty here borders on the impossible. If this RAM was soldered and it had bandwidth no different than SODIMM or LPCAMM modules then I’d say Framework fucked up making it soldered, majorly. As I said, there’s no point buying this if you don’t care about the fast RAM and use cases that need it like LLMs. Regular ITX board with regular AM5 is the way to go.
E: To be clear, if this bandwidth could be achieved with LPCAMM, then Framework fucked up.
No, the pc is upgradable. They explicitly said in the event that the desktop was suppose to be an actual desktop with replaceable parts as much as technically possible. Only ram is tied to the mobo/cpu because of technical limitations of the amd cpu
At least memory is soldered on because of high throughout they say.
It will be faster than most next-gen laptops, and it’s much cheaper than a similarly-specced Asus Z13. Strix Halo uses a quad channel 8533Mhz bus, 2 full Zen CCDs like you find in desktops/servers, and a 40 CU GPU. Its more than twice the size/performance of two true “laptop chips” put together.
Everything except the APU/RAM/Mobo combo is upgradable, and you don’t have to replace the whole machine if the board fails.
I mean, if you don’t need that kind of compute/RAM, this system is not for you, and old gaming desktops are probably better deals for pure gaming. But this thing has a niche.
Everything except the APU/RAM/Mobo combo is upgradable, and you don’t have to replace the whole machine if the board fails.
So… storage, case, and USB C dongles?
You can change the squares on the front panel!!!
/s
Fans, case, ports, side panel, …
Whatever you do with a pc, you can do with this.
Just not separately replace ram and cpu because of the cpu design of amd.Hell, it can be connected to another one to make on hell of a compute monster too.
Oh. Okay. As long as I can replace the side panel.
A PC lets you replace the CPU, ram and plug in multiple pcie cards.
This is less upgradable than the average laptop.
I think the framework desktop would be an absolute powerhouse as a workstation desktop.
Think developers ( that still use desktops ), people who do raw computational power for science, servers, ai development, …
their pricing means it is basically never worth buying and upgrading versus just buying a new laptop (seriously, run the numbers. You basically save 10 bucks over two generations of shopping at Best Buy).
Maybe so. But the big difference is, you can upgrade iteratively rather than taking the entire hit of a new device all at once. So I can buy all of the individual components of my next laptop a few hundred dollars at a time over the course of a couple of years, and use them as I get them. By the time I’ve ship-of-theseus’d the whole device, I may have spent the same amount of money on that new computer, but I paced it how I wanted it. Then I put all of the old components into an enclosure and now I can use it as a media center or whatever. Plus, if something breaks, I can fix it.
What exactly can you upgrade iteratively?
From the laptop perspective (because the desktop is totally all about that side panel life):
- Memory: Ultrabooks are hell, no arguments there. But many brands have increasingly allowed at least one SODIMM to be swapped out and many still no longer solder the other one. And I’ll say, from personal experience, that buying and swapping out RAM in a relatively new-ish laptop often comes out closer to the price of just paying for the upgraded SKU to begin with. So there is the logic of “I’ll add another 16 GB in two years” but… yeah.
- Storage: Again, same. Except that they tend to not even solder down the nvmes. There are some particularly asshole vendors but they are few and far between. And this totally is worth doing since they tend to be fairly standard nvme drives or the small SSD that I always forget the format of. Rather than RAM that is only used by laptops and NUCs and costs an arm and a leg…
- Ports: Framework laptops just use USB C dongles for everything. They have a semi-proprietary format for those but it is still, fundamentally, a usb c dongle. And, from talking to a mutual on a discord who has one, it has the same fundamental problem that USB C dongles/hubs do when installing the more finicky OSes (hi Proxmox and OpnSense) where you can’t actually access the hub capabilities until AFTER the OS is installed (the more live CD based distros avoid this). So no difference in terms of upgrades and modularity outside of having fewer vendors to buy a dongle from if you care about form factor that much.
- CPU: Only if you swap out the motherboard which is the vast majority of the price of the laptop anyway.
- Keyboard, display, etc: These are less “upgrades” so much as replacements. Which are good arguments for repairability but also… go actually look at ifixit’s website and see how many laptops are repairable. It is mostly just apple who suck horrifically
And just because it always amuses me and never fails, let’s price out upgrading/replacing a framework (uplacing?). I’ll assume no parts failed to keep prices simple and “You can replace your keyboard every time it fails over a five year period” is not the flex people think it is. I’ll use the intel core ultra series 1 because that is in stock and not a preorder. We are dealing with last year’s model (I think. I haven’t followed Intel laptop processors too much) so there is inherently wiggle room there, but it is theoretically fair as it is last year’s model for both of them since I had to dig deep into the framework site to find an Intel since fuck Best Buy’s website if you are trying to compare AMDs (also fuck AMD for their naming insanity).
- FW13 with Intel Core Ultra Series 1 at 13 inches is estimated to be 999 USD https://frame.work/products/laptop13-intel-ultra-1/configuration/new. 8 Gigs of RAM, Ultra 5 125H, 256 GB Storage
- Core Ultra 5 Series 1 at 13 inches. Ultra 5 125U so techincally different but arguably much better for an actual laptop. 256 GB storage, 8 GB RAM. … Eothas wept at this URL https://www.bestbuy.com/site/hp-probook-460-g11-16-ips-1920-x-1200-wuxga-laptop-intel-core-ultra-5-with-8gb-memory-256-gb-ssd-pike-silver-aluminum-gray/6601496.p?skuId=6601496. Estimated to be 879.99 USD
So we are already looking at the framework being about 120 USD more expensive without looking at any configurations or upgrades.
So let’s get into that hyperbolic time chamber and totally not have gay sex with the glistening man hunk known as Vegeta. Five years later, let’s consider an upgrade… to the same SKU.
On the Framework marketplace, another 125H mobo costs 399 USD right now.
- Framework:
999 + 399 = 1398for two generations of a laptop - Best Buy:
879 + 879 = 1758 - For a total savings of
1758-1398 = 360USD over 5 years of getting soaked by that galick gun
Which is nothing to balk at. But that assumes that your display and keyboard held up and didn’t need replacing, you liked all the default dongles Framework gave you (which is apparently just four USB C ports… to plug into the four USB C ports on the laptop), and, most importantly, that Framework didn’t change their form factor (I am not sure if they did for the 16 inch laptops to support the “modular” keyboards). Every spare dongle or repaired/upgraded part costs money. Versus being guaranteed a “pristine” new laptop… full of massive amounts of bloatware that you immediately format the shit out of to put Linux on that.
And, obvious grain of salt, the past few times I have done this exercise it was closer to 100 USD. Framework just happen to be dumping large amounts of old stock right now for their new models so the prices are better and the comparisons are more tedious.
Again, conceptually I like Framework. And, for as much as I mock them, I actually do like the form factor for their dongles a lot. Give me a computer with a shit ton of USB C ports but also let me leep it usable at work without needing to carry around my sketchy anker dongle/dock. And I don’t really fault them too much for not letting you actually swap CPUs since that was basically something only the sickest of sickos did until the AM4 socket lasted like 40 years somehow.
But their key strength is marketing and that has only gotten stronger since they got the full power of linus media group behind them because that company needs to protect their shareholders’ investment.
And, like I said before, I do worry that this just encourages people to hoard parts. Like… anyone who has built a desktop or two has that big plastic bin full of old ram and mobos and even graphics cards that they might use someday but never will (PSU is totally worth saving though).
What exactly can you upgrade iteratively?
At the price point, being able to upgrade memory, storage, and motherboard is unique. And I know you say that it’s the “vast majority” of the cost, but I just bought a Framework 13 last month (I know, great timing) and the mainboard was right around half the total cost. So sure, the most expensive single component, but it means that I can upgrade to a better-performing machine in the future for half the price and not need to junk everything else.
Framework laptops just use USB C dongles for everything.
Correct. But honestly, having the swappable I/O is fantastic; over the last five laptops I’ve owned, I’ve only upgraded because I wanted new capabilities once. For the other four, it’s because a component failed; and in two of them it was a USB port, while in a third it was a charging port. Being able to replace those would have extended the lives of those machines substantially.
fewer vendors to buy a dongle from
Actually, they’re open-source (not proprietary). And since they’re USB-C, you could probably just take out the card and plug a dongle right in there if you really needed to (I have not tried this).
Framework: 999 + 399 = 1398 for two generations of a laptop
I’m planning to hold on to this device for a whole lot longer than two generations. If I can, I’d like to hang on to it for 15-20 years. The laptop I upgraded from was five years old or so (and would still be going strong if it didn’t have a port that was about to die and un-upgradeable RAM and storage), and my desktop is 13 years old and still going strong, so this isn’t terribly unreasonable. I would estimate that I’ll end up pouring about $2000, all told, into this laptop over that time period, likely replacing 3-4 laptop purchases and giving me a better machine during that time period.
that assumes that your display and keyboard held up and didn’t need replacing,
Both of which would be cheaper than a new device. A new display is $150 and a new keyboard is $30. I don’t know about the longevity of each component, but based on the research I did it’s definitely not worse than an off-the-shelf machine.
you liked all the default dongles Framework gave you (which is apparently just four USB C ports… to plug into the four USB C ports on the laptop),
There aren’t any defaults. When you spec out your kit, you choose which cards to purchase. Replacing them costs about $10. (EDIT: The USB-C ones cost $10. The other ones are variously priced between $10-40, and then there are some storage expansions that cost more because they’re basically SSD in the expansion card form factor).
and, most importantly, that Framework didn’t change their form factor
They’ve only done that once since they launched, across six updates to the components. When they made that upgrade, they offered a $90 top cover to bring first gen devices up to second gen specs.
(I am not sure if they did for the 16 inch laptops to support the “modular” keyboards).
There’s only been one generation of the 16 inch laptops, and they’ve always had the modular keyboards. The refresh they announced yesterday is just to components, not to chassis.
Every spare dongle or repaired/upgraded part costs money.
Yep, and I’m fine with that because it means that I can spec it out the way I want; I don’t have to pay for I/O that I’ll never use. My old laptop had an SD card reader and a DisplayPort output; I literally never used either. The one I had before it had a SATA connector on the external I/O, and a couple of other pieces of nonsense that I didn’t want or need. Actually, thinking back, I don’t know if I’ve ever owned a laptop (until this one) where I actually used all of the ports.
And I don’t really fault them too much for not letting you actually swap CPUs since that was basically something only the sickest of sickos did
Yeah, I think swappable CPUs on a laptop are a thing of the past. I hope I’m wrong, but I just don’t see it coming back.
I do worry that this just encourages people to hoard parts
I DON’T HAVE A PROBLEM
I CAN STOP WHENEVER I WANT TO
and more at people who want the smallest, most powerful desktop they can build
Well, there’s this:
Yeah, the screw holes didn’t fit, that’s why. And the cooler didn’t fit the case, obviously. And the original cooler not the CPU’s turbo. It’s fine, it still runs most games in 3k on the iGPU.
The bowing on that board makes me think it’s not much longer for this world.
“To enable the massive 256GB/s memory bandwidth that Ryzen AI Max delivers, the LPDDR5x is soldered,” writes Framework CEO Nirav Patel in a post about today’s announcements. “We spent months working with AMD to explore ways around this but ultimately determined that it wasn’t technically feasible to land modular memory at high throughput with the 256-bit memory bus. Because the memory is non-upgradeable, we’re being deliberate in making memory pricing more reasonable than you might find with other brands.”
😒🍎
Edit: to be clear, I was only trying to point out that “we’re being deliberate in making memory pricing more reasonable than you might find with other brands” is clearly targeting the Mac Mini, because Apple likes to price-gouge on RAM upgrades. (“Unamused face looking at Apple,” get it? Maybe I emoji’d wrong.) My comment is not meant to be an opinion about the soldered RAM.
To be fair it starts with 32GB of RAM, which should be enough for most people. I know it’s a bit ironic that Framework have a non-upgradeable part, but I can’t see myself buying a 128GB machine and hoping to raise it any time in the future.
If you really need an upgradeable machine you wouldn’t be buying a mini-PC anyways, seems like they’re trying to capture a different market entirely.
seems like they’re trying to capture a different market entirely.
Yes that’s the problem.
That they want to sell cheap ai research machines to use for workstation?
That’s a poor attempt to knowingly misrepresent my statement.
No, it is a question
The answer is that they’re abandoning their principles to pursue some other market segment.
Although I guess it could be said to be like Porsche and Lamborghini selling SUVs to support the development of their sports cars…
I don’t understand how that answers my question
According to the CEO in the LTT video about this thing it was a design choice made by AMD because otherwise they cannot get the ram speed they advertise.
Which is fine, but there was no obligation for Framework to use that chip either.
Suppose the counter is that the market is chock full of modular options to build a system without framework.
In the laptop space, it’s their unique hook in a market that is otherwise devoid of modularity. In the desktop space, even the mini itx space, framework doesn’t really need to be serving that modularity requirement since it is so well served already. It might make it so I’m likely to ignore it completely, but I’m not going to be super bothered when I have so many other options
In the same video it’s pointed out that this product wouldn’t exist at all without the AMD chip. It’s literally built around it.
My biggest gripe about non replaceable components is the chance that they’ll fail. I’ve had pretty much every component die on me at some point. If it’s replaceable it’s fine because you just get a new component, but if it isn’t you now have an expensive brick.
I will admit that I haven’t had anything fail recently like in the past, I have a feeling the capacitor plague of the early 2000s influenced my opinion on replaceable parts.
I also don’t fall in the category of people that need soldered components in order to meet their demands, I’m happy with raspberry pis and used business PCs.
You can get an MS-A1 barebones from minisforum right now for like 215 - BYO cpu, ddr5, and m2. But it’s got oculink on the back (the pcie dock is 100, but not mandatory if you’re not going to use it). I think it’s supposed to be on sale for another couple days.
Well, more specifically: why didn’t they try to go for LPCAMM?
Because you’d get like half the memory bandwidth to a product where performance is most likely bandwidth limited. Signal integrity is a bitch.
From what I understand, they did try, but AMD couldn’t get it to work because of signal integrity issues.
Yeah hugely disappointed by this tbh. They should have made a gaming capable steam machine in cooperation with valve instead :)
Yeah.
But that’s AMD’s fault, as they gimped the GPU so much on the lower end. There should be a “cheap” 8-core, 1-CCD part with close to the full 40 CUs… But there is not.
They still could; this seems aimed at the AI/ML research space TBH
This is an AI chip designed primarily for running AI workflows. The fact that it can game is secondary
Yeah exactly, its worthless… Even the big players already admit to the AI hype being over. This is the worst possible thing to launch for them, its like they have no idea who their customers are.
I mean, it’s not. You can do aí workflows with this wonderful chip.
If you wanna game, go buy nvidia
The AI hype being over doesn’t mean no one is working on AI anymore. LLMs and other trained models are here to stay whether you like it or not.
Would 256GB/s be too slow for large llms?
It runs on the gpu
Many LLM operations rely on fast memory and gpus seem to have that. Even though their memory is soldered and vbios is practically a black box that is tightly controlled. Nothing on a GPU is modular or repairable without soldering skills(and tools).
Calling it a gaming PC feels misleading. It’s definitely geared more towards enterprise/AI workloads. If you want upgradeable just buy a regular framework. This desktop is interesting but niche and doesn’t seem like it’s for gamers.
I think it’s like Apple-Niche
This is not really that interesting and kinda weird given the non-upgradability, but I guess it’s good for AI workloads. It’s just not that unique compared to their laptops.
I’d love a mid-tower case with swappable front panel I/O and modular bays for optical drives; would’ve been the perfect product for Framework to make IMO.
It’s just not that unique compared to their laptops.
This’ll be a good sell for the useful idiot crowd that has been conditioned to think gaming laptops are the devil.
The mini’s are the latest new hotness for desktop computing. I’ve been running a dirt cheap $90US, mini for 2 years now. It fits extremely well on my desk, just tucked in under the monitor leaving plenty of room for all the other tasks I do daily.
Will it play the latest hot new video game? Nope. But it will run OnlyOffice, FreeCAD and FreeDoom just fine.
They’d be competing with a bajillion other case makers. And I’m pretty sure there are already cases with what you ask (such as 5.25 bay mounted IO running off USB headers, at least).
Like… I don’t really see what framework can bring making a case. Maybe it could be a super SFF mobo with a GPU bay, but that’s close to what they did here.
I feel like this is a big miss by framework. Maybe I just don’t understand because I already own a Velka 3 that i used happily for years and building small form factor with standard parts seems better than what this is offering. Better as in better performance, aesthetics, space optimization, upgradeability - SFF is not a cheap or easy way to build a computer.
The biggest constraint building in the sub-5 liter format is GPU compatibility because not many manufacturers even make boards in the <180mm length category. Also can’t go much higher than 150-200 watts because cooling is so difficult. There are still options though, i rocked a PNY 1660 super for a long time, and the current most powerful option is a 4060ti. Although upgrades are limited to what manufacturers occasionally produce, it is upgradeable, and it is truly desktop performance.
On the CPU side, you can physically put in whatever CPU you want. The only limitation is that the cooler, alpenfohn black ridge or noctua l9a/l9i, probably won’t have a good time cooling 100+ watts without aggressive undervolting and power limits. 65 watts TDP still gives you a ryzen 7 9700x.
Motherboards have the SFF tax but are high quality in general. Flex ATX PSUs were a bit harder to find 5 or 6 years ago but now the black 600W enhance ENP is readily available from Velkase’s website. Drives and memory are completely standard. m.2 fits with the motherboard, 2.5in SATA also fits in one of the corners. Normal low profile DDR5 is replaceable / upgradeable.
What framework is releasing is more like a laptop board in a ~4 liter case and I really don’t like that in order to upgrade any part of CPU, GPU or memory you have to replace the entire board because it’s soldered on APU and not socketed or discrete components. Framework’s enclosure hasn’t been designed to hold a motherboard+discrete GPU and the board doesn’t have a PCIe slot if you wanted to attach a card via riser in another case. It could be worse but I don’t see this as a good use of development resources.
I think the biggest limiting factor for your mini PC will always be the VRAM and any workload that enjoys that fast RAM speed. Really, I think this mini PC from framework is only sensible for certain workloads. It was poised as a mobile chip and certainly is majorly power efficient. On the other hand I don’t think it is for large scaling but more for testing at home or working at home on the cheap. It isn’t something I expected from framework though as I expected them to maintain modularity and the only modularity here is the little USB cards and the 3D printed front panel designs lol
Edit
Personally I am in that niche market of high RAM speed. Also, access to high VRAM for occasional LLM testing. Though it is an AMD and I don’t know if am comfortable switching from Nvidia for that workload just yet. Renting a GPU is just barely cheap enough.
The Framework Desktop is powered by an AMD Ryzen AI Max processor, a Radeon 8060S integrated GPU, and between 32GB and 128GB of soldered-in RAM.
The CPU and GPU are one piece of silicon, and they’re soldered to the motherboard. The RAM is also soldered down and not upgradeable once you’ve bought it, setting it apart from nearly every other board Framework sells.
It’d raise an eyebrow if it was a laptop but it’s a freakin’ desktop. Fuck you framework.
I get the frustration with a system being so locked down, but if 32gb is the minimum I don’t really see the problem. This pc will be outdated before you really need to upgrade the ram to play new games.
It’s not just about upgrading. It’s also about being able to repair your computer. RAM likes to go bad and on a normal PC, you can replace it easily. Buy a cheap stick, take out the old RAM, put in the new one and you’ll have a working computer again. Quick & easy and even your grandpa is able to run Memtest and do a quick switch. But if you solder down everything, the whole PC becomes electronic waste as most people won’t be able to solder RAM.
Yeah, it totally fucks repairability. But it sounds like this is not something this company normally does, and not something they could control.
They should at least offer a superior warranty to cover such scenarios.
The hell you mean “not something they could control”? Their whole deal is making upgradeable, repairable devices and ram thats replaceable is no industry secret. Their options should have been make it work or dont make it at all.
If you read into it, this was a limitation on AMD’s part, which they tried to resolve. You don’t have to buy it, and the rest of their lineup should meet your expectations.
You know, they didn’t have to make a product with this specific chip. They did it anyway despite it being inherently incompatible with their former goals. And this is not about us customers, this is about Framework abandoning what they stood for and losing credibility in the process.
They kind of did. What other chip allows for 128 GB of VRAM or has that kind of iGPU?
🥱
Seriously that’s really disappointing. It really seems like investors decides that they needed to “diversify” their offering and they need something with AI now … Framework was on a good path imo but of course a repairable laptop only goes so far since people can repair it and don’t need to replace it every 2 years (or maybe just replace the motherboard) so if you want to grow you need to make more products …
Honestly this is exactly the product I was waiting for minisforum to make. I think this is actually a pretty solid move.
I agree. We need less soldered RAM designs. I thought repairability was something they appreciated.
Well tbh they still do have repairable laptops, even new ones and all that, and the “excuse” is that the only way to properly use that specific AMD CPU is with that specific RAM and the non.soldered bus wasn’t enough, but still… i’ll stick to old #ThinkPads, thank you.
insanely hostile response to something like this. they attempted to have these parts replaceable, AMD physically couldn’t do it. they’ve still made it as repairable as possible, and will without a doubt be more repairable than similar devices using this chipset. fucking relax, being reactionary without being informed is dumb.
will without a doubt be more repairable than similar devices
It’s a desktop, they’re repairable unless you solder something in.
using this chipset
They could’ve gone with any other chipset, making the whole thing irrelevant to begin with, but they couldn’t please the AI crowd that way.
By similar devices I obviously mean ITX PCs with similar chipsets. The average PC isn’t giving you 128GB of VRAM for $2k.
Local AI is a difficult thing to do right now, making a product to allow people to use AI without giving up their privacy is great.
We need to stop bending over backwards to lower our standards for the people making money off of us.
Have higher standards.
Don’t be a useful idiot.
You need to get a grip. Framework is a private company that has done very well by its customers and supporters so far. Stop being so fucking negative.
Oof, found the proud consumer.
They always get upset when you point out how they’re being taken advantage of.
They can never willingly take a bad deal, right? 😉
you seriously have issues. and you’re a dick on top of that.
you’re either a troll or just a shitty person.
Wow, calm down.
This is how you react when people say we should have higher standards? I guess you really are insecure about your purchasing habits.
The consumerism runs deep with you. Now you’re going to throw a tantrum trying to find ways to defend being taken for a ride 😎
Looks like a pile of shit for easily-impressionable morons, but that’s to be expected from framework.
What exactly do you want instead?
Great products for great prices!
Like what, specifically, instead of this?
Lol. Are you nuts? Am I really supposed to sit here and list off what makes a great product for a great price?
Let’s be real. You don’t like how I criticized how people like you are getting taken for a ride so you’re desperate to make it seem like it’s not true.
The sooner you realize how you’re being taken advantage of, the sooner you can start to do something about it.
Am I really supposed to sit here and list off what makes a great product for a great price?
I don’t understand what you are asking for.
You don’t have to be extensive, but… what would you want instead? A more traditional Mini PC? A dGPU instead? A different size laptop? Like, if you could actually tell Framework what you want, in brief, what would you say?
Fair enough.
I skimmed it for a few seconds, got a little bit ill at the $1100 starting price, and then it occurred to me: what is this for?
Wasn’t framework’s whole thing about making modular laptops? What value are they bringing to the mini-ITX market? They’re already modular. In fact, it looks like they’re taking away customizability with soldered RAM.
You asked me what I want, and this is definitely what I don’t want. If they wanted to make this product appealing to me, they’d have to lower the price and live more modest lifestyles with the more modest profit margins.
Edit: After closer inspection (albeit, not that close so I may have missed something) it looks like this… thing doesn’t even have a dedicated GPU. Yeah, framework can suck my fucking balls lol.
You can literally get a 4070 gaming laptop these days for ~$1000 and framework is trying to push this shit? They can fuck off so hard it’s not even funny. This is why the free world never has enough to go around, because we waste our excess on dumb shit like this.
Here’s a gaming laptop with a 4070 and a 144hz screen for $900 at Walmart:
Fuck framework.
This is ostensibly more of a workstation/dev thing. The integrated GPU is more or less like a very power efficient laptop 4070/4080 with unlimited VRAM, depending on which APU you pick, and the CPU is very fast, with desktop Ryzen CCDs but double the memory bandwidth of what even an 9800 X3D has. In that sense, it’s a steal compared to Nvidia DIGITs or an Apple M4 Max, and Mini PC makers alternatives haven’t really solidified yet.
I think Framework knows they can’t compete with a $900 Walmart laptop and the crazy bulk pricing/corner cutting they do, nor can they price/engineer things (with the same bulk discounts) at the higher end like a ROG Z13/G14.
So… this kinda makes sense to me. They filled a gap where OEMs are enshittifying things, which feels very framework to me.
