- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.ml
- technology@lemmy.zip
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.ml
- technology@lemmy.zip
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“I used the AI to destroy the AI”
And consumed the power output of a medium country to do it.
Yeah, great job! 👍
We truly are getting dumber as a species. We’re facing climate change but running some of the most power hungry processers in the world to spit out cooking recipes and homework answers for millions of people. All to better collect their data to sell products to them that will distract them from the climate disaster our corporations have caused. It’s really fun to watch if it wasn’t so sad.
We had to kill the internet, to save the internet.
We have to kill the Internet, to save humanity.
So the web is a corporate war zone now and you can choose feudal protection or being attacked from all sides. What a time to be alive.
There is also the corpo verified id route. In order to avoid the onslaught of AI bots and all that comes with them you’ll need to sacrifice freedom, anonymity, and privacy like a good little peasant to prove you aren’t a bot… and so will everyone else. You’ll likely be forced to deal with whatever AI bots are forced upon you while within the walls but better an enemy you know I guess?
I swear someone released this exact thing a few weeks ago
We want names
People complain about AI possibly being unreliable, then actively root for things that are designed to make them unreliable.
This will only make models of bad actors who don’t follow the rules worse quality. You want to sell a good quality AI model trained on real content instead of other misleading AI output? Just follow the rules ;)
Doesn’t sound too bad to me.
Here’s the key distinction:
This only makes AI models unreliable if they ignore “don’t scrape my site” requests. If they respect the requests of the sites they’re profiting from using the data from, then there’s no issue.
People want AI models to not be unreliable, but they also want them to operate with integrity in the first place, and not profit from people’s work who explicitly opt-out their work from training.
I’m a person.
I dont want AI, period.
We cant even handle humans going psycho. Last thing I want is an AI losing its shit due from being overworked producing goblin tentacle porn and going full skynet judgement day.
Got enough on my plate dealing with a semi-sentient olestra stain trying to recreate the third reich, as is.
We cant even handle humans going psycho. Last thing I want is an AI losing its shit due from being overworked producing goblin tentacle porn and going full skynet judgement day.
That is simply not how “AI” models today are structured, and that is entirely a fabrication based on science fiction related media.
The series of matrix multiplication problems that an LLM is, and runs the tokens from a query through does not have the capability to be overworked, to know if it’s been used before (outside of its context window, which itself is just previous stored tokens added to the math problem), to change itself, or to arbitrarily access any system resources.
You must be fun at parties.
- Say something blatantly uninformed on an online forum
- Get corrected on it
- Make reference to how someone is perceived at parties, an entirely different atmosphere from an online forum, and think you made a point
Good job.
- See someone make a comment about a AI going rogue after being forced to produce too much goblin tentacle porn
- Get way to serious over the factual capabilities of a goblin tentacle porn generating AI.
- Act holier than thou over it while being completely oblivious to comedic hyperbole.
Good job.
Whats next? Call me a fool for thinking Olestra stains are capable of sentience and thats not how Olestra works?
Maybe it will learn discretion and what sarcasm are instead of being a front loaded google search of 90% ads and 10% forums. It has no way of knowing if what it’s copy pasting is full of shit.
I find this amusing, had a conversation with an older relative who asked about AI because I am “the computer guy” he knows. Explained basically how I understand LLMs to operate, that they are pattern matching to guess what the next token should be based on a statistical probability. Explained that they sometimes hallucinate, or go of on wild tangents due to this and that they can be really good at aping and regurgitating things but there is no understanding simply respinning fragments to try to generate a response that pleases the asker.
He observed, “oh we are creating computer religions, just without the practical aspects of having to operate in the mundane world that have to exist before a real religion can get started. That’s good, religions that have become untethered from day to day practical life have never caused problems for anyone.”
Which I found scarily insightful.
Oh good.
now I can add digital jihad by hallucinating AI to the list of my existential terrors.
Thank your relative for me.
Not if we go butlerian jihad on them first
lol, I was gonna say a reverse butlerian jihad but i didnt think many people would get the reference :p
i mean this is just designed to thwart ai bots that refuse to follow robots.txt rules of people who specifically blocked them.
Jokes on them. I’m going to use AI to estimate the value of content, and now I’ll get the kind of content I want, though fake, that they will have to generate.
Considering how many false positives Cloudflare serves I see nothing but misery coming from this.
Lol I work in healthcare and Cloudflare regularly blocks incoming electronic orders because the clinical notes “resemble” SQL injection. Nurses type all sorts of random stuff in their notes so there’s no managing that. Drives me insane!
In terms of Lemmy instances, if your instance is behind cloudflare and you turn on AI protection, federation breaks. So their tools are not very helpful for fighting the AI scraping.
Can’t you configure exceptions for behaviours?
I’m not sure what can be done at the free tier. There is a switch to turn on AI not blocking, and it breaks federation.
You can’t whitelist domains because federation could come from and domain. Maybe you could somehow whitelist /inbox for the ActivityPub communication, but I’m not sure how to do that in Cloudflare.
This is getting ridiculous. Can someone please ban AI? Or at least regulate it somehow?
The problem is, how? I can set it up on my own computer using open source models and some of my own code. It’s really rough to regulate that.
Surprised at the level of negativity here. Having had my sites repeatedly DDOSed offline by Claudebot and others scraping the same damned thing over and over again, thousands of times a second, I welcome any measures to help.
I think the negativity is around the unfortunate fact that solutions like this shouldn’t be necessary.
thousands of times a second
Modify your Nginx (or whatever web server you use) config to rate limit requests to dynamic pages, and cache them. For Nginx, you’d use either fastcgi_cache or proxy_cache depending on how the site is configured. Even if the pages change a lot, a cache with a short TTL (say 1 minute) can still help reduce load quite a bit while not letting them get too outdated.
Static content (and cached content) shouldn’t cause issues even if requested thousands of times per second. Following best practices like pre-compressing content using gzip, Brotli, and zstd helps a lot, too :)
Of course, this advice is just for “unintentional” DDoS attacks, not intentionally malicious ones. Those are often much larger and need different protection - often some protection on the network or load balancer before it even hits the server.
Already done, along with a bunch of other stuff including cloudflare WAF and rate limiting rules.
I am still annoyed that it took me over a day’ of my life to finally (so far) restrict these things. And several other days to offload the problem to Cloudflare pages for sites that I previous self hosted but my rural link couldn’t support.
this advice is just for “unintentional” DDoS attacks, not intentionally malicious ones.
And I don’t think these high volume AI scrapes are unintentional DDOS attacks. I consider them entirely intentional. Not deliberrately malicious, but negligent to the point of criminality. (Especially in requesting the same pages again so frequently, and all of them ignoring robots.txt)
Will this further fuck up the inaccurate nature of AI results? While I’m rooting against shitty AI usage, the general population is still trusting it and making results worse will, most likely, make people believe even more wrong stuff.
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The problem I see with poisoning the data is the AI’s being trained for law enforcement hallucinating false facts used to arrest and convict people.
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Law enforcement doesn’t convict anyone, that’s a judge’s job. If a LEO falsely arrests you, you can sue them, and it should be pretty open-and-shut if it’s due to AI hallucination. Enough of that and LEO will stop it.
Law enforcement AI is a terrible idea and it doesn’t matter whether you feed it “false facts” or not. There’s enough bias in law enforcement that the data is essentially always poisoned.
The article says it’s not poisoning the AI data, only providing valid facts. The scraper still gets content, just not the content it was aiming for.
E:
It is important to us that we don’t generate inaccurate content that contributes to the spread of misinformation on the Internet, so the content we generate is real and related to scientific facts, just not relevant or proprietary to the site being crawled.
Until the AI generating the content starts hallucinating.
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Cloudflare kind of real for this. I love it.
It makes perfect sense for them as a business, infinite automated traffic equals infinite costs and lower server stability, but at the same time how often do giant tech companies do things that make sense these days?
Kind of seems like they simply installed this dude’s tarpit from a few months ago
I’m imagining a sci-fi spin on this where AI generators are used to keep AI crawlers in a loop, and they accidentally end up creating some unique AI culture or relationship in the process.
I guess this is what the first iteration of the Blackwall looks like.
Gotta say “AI Labyrinth” sounds almost as cool.
Will it actually allow ordinary users to browse normally, though? Their other stuff breaks in minority browsers. Have they tested this well enough so that it won’t? (I’d bet not.)
while allowing legitimate users and verified crawlers to browse normally.
What is a “verified crawler” though? What I worry about is, is it only big companies like Google that are allowed to have them now?
I assume a crawler which adheres to robots.txt
I would love to think so. But the word “verified” suggests more.
IP verification is a not uncommon method for commercial crawlers
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Any accessibility service will also see the “hidden links”, and while a blind person with a screen reader will notice if they wonder off into generated pages, it will waste their time too. Especially if they don’t know about such “feature” they’ll be very confused.
Also, I don’t know about you, but I absolutely have a use for crawling X, Google maps, Reddit, YouTube, and getting information from there without interacting with the service myself.
this is some fucking stupid situation, we somewhat got a faster internet and these bots messing each other are hogging the bandwidth.
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How can authority not exist? That’s staggeringly broad
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Not who you responded to but yeah I want to hear a drug fuelled rant I don’t even care what topic
I… Don’t think I’ve heard anyone claim authority shouldn’t exist.
So here’s a little bit of lemmy lore for you. You’re instance lemmy.ml is considered to be a tankie instance by some users. lemmy.dbzer0.com is an anarchist instance. The user you responded to probably made a generalisation based on this and assumed you were familiar with anarchist/communist/socialist/leftist discourse. From this comment I assume they were wrong.
So on behalf of no-one but myself: Hello! Welcome to Anarchism! The belief that authority should not exist. This belief comes from a lot of different places and wears a lot of different faces. Most short explanations aren’t sufficient and long explanation bore most. If you don’t mind a little learning here is a link: https://anarchistfaq.org/afaq/sectionA.html#seca1 and another one https://crimethinc.com/2016/09/28/feature-the-secret-is-to-begin-getting-started-further-resources-frequently-asked-questions#faq or if you like videos: https://youtu.be/lrTzjaXskUU.
Also a little bit about authority: people use authority to mean many things (this is even bought up in the video I linked above). But as far as anarchists are concerned (in general (no specific statement can be made about a group so vast)) authority is the act of coercing people to follow orders or commit involuntary acts. You’re boss can coerce you to neglect your health by threatening to fire you. Your government can force you to obey gender roles by threatening to jail you. A rich person can make you do whatever demeaning thing they want by dangling money in front of you (for reference see mrbeast) because otherwise your landlord will kick you out. This is authority and it is wrong. Those in authority can make mistakes, become greedy and start to think they have the power to do whatever they want (mostly because they can). This leads to suffering. My meaning of life is to minimise suffering. Anarchy is the belief that no-one should hold power over others. That all leadership should be scrutinised. It rejects blind faith in single people and encourages to think for yourself so no-one can do you wrong. And if you can’t be bothered, it encourages you to find people who genuinely care about you and let them stand up for you.
Thanks, I don’t really care for generalizing instances and didn’t really have a choice when I made my account.
But also your definition is impossibly broad as you well and I’m pretty sure not the general consensus. The video doesn’t define it as such either.
For one thing, by your definition we can have absolutely no meaningful human relationships. I can explain this more later when I have time if you don’t see what I mean
My explanation of authority wasn’t meant as a definition but rather a brief summarisation of a complex concept, Andrew does a better job actually explaining it. Like pointing out that Authority is confused with a lot of different concepts like respect or influence. Which I’m starting to suspect is happening here. meaningful human relationships are based on mutual respect. This is not authority as it is voluntary, reciprocated and revoked as soon as the other party steps over the line. This is what I believe is the basis of society and what we need to return to in order to live a truly free life. In modern society in most interactions respect has been replaced with authority. People in positions of power even use them synonymously.
That’s not really relevant here. This is more of a “genie is out of the bottle and now we have to learn how to deal with it situation”. The idea and technology of bots and AI training already exists. There’s no socioeconomic system that is going to magically make that go away.
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everyone remembers tomogatchi, they were like a digital houseplant.
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It’s difficult to imagine a group of people voluntarily amassing and then using the resources necessary for “AI” absent the desire to cash in on their investment.
I mean Dmitry Pospelov was arguing for AI control in the Soviet Union clear back in the 70s.
Just another way the state capitalist soviet union was closer to capitalism than socialism.
It is called regulation in sane parts of the world.
Sadly, those areas seem to be diminishing rapidly until more people enter the Find Out phase.
Lost on Lemmy?
He is not wrong. Unless people start to take steps , the dependency of tech will be used to chain most of us. Granted, these chains will be the kindest and gentlest chains seen in a long time.
Social revolution lives on in decentralized services, like this; the true battles will be later though. This year is a mild warm up. I can’t imagine the challenges that await many
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The problem you aren’t recognizing is that, until humans are no longer driven by self preservation, there will always be oppression in any system. They all have and will continue to breakdown. It’s easy to blame capitalism but even socialist systems eventually cave under the weight of greed and power. We are the problem mon frère.
Especially since the solution I cooked up for my site works just fine and took a lot less work. This is simply to identify the incoming requests from these damn bots – which is not difficult, since they ignore all directives and sanity and try to slam your site with like 200+ requests per second, that makes 'em easy to spot – and simply IP ban them. This is considerably simpler, and doesn’t require an entire nuclear plant powered AI to combat the opposition’s nuclear plant powered AI.
In fact, anybody who doesn’t exhibit a sane crawl rate gets blocked from my site automatically. For a while, most of them were coming from Russian IP address zones for some reason. These days Amazon is the worst offender, I guess their Rufus AI or whatever the fuck it is tries to pester other retail sites to “learn” about products rather than sticking to its own domain.
Fuck 'em. Route those motherfuckers right to /dev/null.
and try to slam your site with like 200+ requests per second
Your solution would do nothing to stop the crawlers that are operating 10ish rps. There’s ones out there operating at a mere 2rps but when multiple companies are doing it at the same time 24x7x365 it adds up.
Some incredibly talented people have been battling this since last year and your solution has been tried multiple times. It’s not effective in all instances and can require a LOT of manual intervention and SysAdmin time.
https://thelibre.news/foss-infrastructure-is-under-attack-by-ai-companies/
Yep. After you ban all the easy to spot ones you’re still left with far too many hard to ID bots. At least if your site is popular and large.
It’s worked alright for me. Your mileage may vary.
If someone is scraping my site at a low crawl rate I honestly don’t care so long as it doesn’t impact my performance for everyone else. If I hosted anything that was not just public knowledge or copy regurgitated verbatim from the bumf provided by the vendors of the brands I sell, I might oppose to it ideologically. But I don’t. So I don’t.
If parallel crawling from multiple organizations legitimately becomes a concern for us I will have to get more creative. But thus far it hasn’t, and honestly just wholesale blocking Amazon from our shit instantly solved 90% of the problem.
the only problem with that solution being applied to generic websites is schools and institutions can have many legitimate users from one IP address and many sites don’t want a chance to accidentally block one.
This is fair in those applications. I only run an ecommerce web site, though, so that doesn’t come into play.
Geez, that’s a lot of requests!
Lol website traffic accounts for like 1% of bandwidth budget. 1 netflix movie is like 20k web pages.
It’s what I’ve been saying about technology for the past decade or two … we’ve hit an upper limit to our technological development … that limit is on individual human greed where small groups of people or massively wealthy people hinder or delay any further development because they’re always trying to find ways to make money off it, prevent others from making money off it, monopolize an area or section of society … capitalism is literally our world’s bottleneck and it’s being choked off by an oddly shaped gold bar at this point.
