I hate how “anti-war” has been hijacked by these people to mean, let imperialist countries invade whoever they want with no consequences. (in the case of tankies, any imperialist country that isn’t in NATO).
multi-polar imperialism
Typical RadLib American imperialist Lemmy Post
TIL American imperialism is when Russia’s neighbours don’t let themselves be invaded by Russia
Those words all mean things!
For the fucking tankies and MAGAts, if the French and King Louis XVI would have turned their backs on the US colonials from 1775 to 1783, the Red Coats would have crushed your rebellion and you would have been another Dominion like Canada. Hang on, someone press reset.
You mean I would have had universal healthcare?!
Mother fucking French…
😂 …indeed.
So I understand that MAGA is U.S. based, but how many of the “tankies” do you really think are from the U.S.
Even this place is full or russian propaganda? Referring to some comments.
It’s generally pretty easy to spot. Just look for a short inflammatory sentence without any substance or relevance. They try to fan the flames of conservative meme culture to try and rile up angry and useless debate.
short inflammatory sentence without any substance or relevance you say? Does this count as an example?
MAGAts are either too stupid to realize or too fragile to acknowledge that they’re getting ass-fucked by putin
Yes, that’s a great example of how propaganda influences the culture of discussion. Russia has been a key source of pushing this kind of rhetoric for a long time, with the specific goal of shifting the culture away from meaningful debate and toward juvenile, reactionary responses. Even though the comment you highlighted comes from the opposite point of view, it’s a perfect example of how effective Russian propaganda campaigns have been at shaping and distorting cultural discourse, muddying the waters and preventing genuine conversations from taking place. Your example is a result of their efforts as I highlighted in my original statement.
Definitely.
It’s like their version of STOP RESISTING.
My Mom said Russia had to attack Ukraine, because they were trying to join NATO. I asked why she thinks Ukraine was trying to join NATO. I’m still digging for a bedrock of logic.
Part of the problem with game theory and finding a “bedrock of logic” is that game theoretical analysis is often recursive. It’s not a stack of prepositions and conclusions; it’s often a loop. Sort of like a resonance structure. I’ve got my gun aimed at you because your gun is aimed at me because my gun is aimed at you … recursively forever.
My understanding is that the US/NATO and the USSR/Russia, ie the two sides of the Cold War, have maintained a sense of peace and security by maintaining a buffer between the two sides. A buffer of distance, which is relevant because it relates to the time it takes nuclear weapons to travel from one adversarial territory to the other.
The Cuban Missile Crisis was basically caused because Cuba was too close to the USA for nuclear missiles to be stored in a way that the balance of MAD could be maintained.
The public declaration (by Kamala Harris, incidentally) that Ukraine would join NATO is a violation of a promise made by Reagan that NATO would not extend to the border of Russia.
It’s similar to the USSR’s attempt to install nuclear missiles in Cuba, in the sense that it’s simply too close.
That’s my understanding of the motivation behind Russia’s invasion. I’m quite new to all this though.
So it’s less like “Stop resisting!” and more like “Drop the gun!”
My suspicion is that MAD overall is diminishing in its power to stabilize the world militarily, as a result of new military technologies coming into play (space-based weapons, drones, AI, hypersonic missiles, iron dome scenarios) as well as more and more nuclear powers coming online, and the increasing probability of nuclear weapons falling into the hands of non-state actors.
And finally there’s China’s overall rise toward the role of hegemonic power.
The Cold War basically organized itself (and hence organized the influences that minimized military action) around two major powers. Now there’s a third major power that’s rapidly accelerating toward becoming the major power. It’s changing all the equations that balanced out in the 1970s, 80s, etc.
The Cuban Missile Crisis was basically caused because Cuba was too close to the USA for nuclear missiles to be stored in a way that the balance of MAD could be maintained.
The so-called Cuban Missile Crisis was caused by Kennedy moving nuclear missiles into Turkey, within striking range of the USSR. It never would have happened if Kennedy hadn’t decided to start swinging his dick around.
Distance is really not much of a factor any more, and hasn’t been for a long time. Kaliningrad and St. Petersburg can already be reached by submarine launched cruise missiles in less than 15 minutes (conservative estimate). And let’s face it, with MAD being a thing, any kind of nuclear strike is likely to escalate into all-out nuclear annihilation, anyway. This makes any attempt at overwhelming the opponent a losing proposition. So in that sense nothing has changed since, oh, the mid-1970s?
Then there is the argument that Russia doesn’t want a long shared border with NATO. Guess what, their aggression has caused Finland and Sweden to join NATO, which has only added to their shared border with NATO. That they already had with Poland and the Baltic states (there is no treaty nor official document prohibiting NATO expansion).
And finally, how hard is it to understand that NATO is a defensive alliance? It is neither politically geared to nor militarily capable of mounting a conquest of Russia. The fact that so many of Russia’s neighbors are eager to join the alliance should be a pretty strong hint as to why it needs to exist in the first place. It is Russia that cannot be trusted, not NATO. And you can’t make your neighbor “drop the gun” in their own house. The Ukrainians were stupid enough already to return their nuclear arsenal to Russia in return for explicit security guarantees. What a mistake that was.
Don’t even get me started on how China is criminally underrated as a manifest threat to world peace…
The reason Ukraine wanted to join NATO is that Russia already had occupied Crimea and part of Georgia before. All that after Ukraine gave up all the nukes they still had from USSR times. Ukraine was not a threat to Russia before the occupation of Crimea.
/me sees title. “Oh, these comments are gonna be fun…”
Can someone show me where all the tankies are? All I ever see is anti-tankie propaganda like this and its seems like a straw man to me. Where are the Leftists who defend Russian aggression?
In this fucking post, for starters.
Did you ask that before or after scrolling down and reading the comments doing exactly that?
/c/endlesswar
It’s funny that if you change Russia for Israel and Ukraine for Palestine suddenly the “pro-war” group become “anti-war”.
Only funny if you think it’s “a pro war” stance and not “Anti-civillians-getting-slaughtered-by-an-oppressive-outsized-imperialist-neighbor”.
Isn’t it the same Russia-Ukraine and Israel-Palestine?
Similar to how libs view the genocide in palestine.
Red-painted fascists just can’t help themselves. War is Completely Justified Resistance And Blowback until someone actually fights back, at which point it’s Pointlessly Extending The Conflict
US and Ukraine puppet rulers 100% instigated the war, and are the one who want it to continue. It is categorically false that Russia is interested in ruling all of Ukraine. Tolerating or believing such BS ensures your own oppression. Every US war is tolerated because you are brainwashed into stories of their leader deserving US aggression. War/sanctions is not for your benefit. Pressing for nuclear war with your absurd lies and tolerance for demonic diminishment of world is bad for you too.
There seems to be a “wokeness” over propaganda for Israel genocide, Syria insurection, and every single other war and coup the US is involved in, and the corporatist oligarchist propaganda subjugating you, and meant to subjugate you. When you humanize such disgusting lying propaganda as Russia is the one who is the aggressor in Ukraine, your idiocy fully guarantees your oppression, and you get these disappointing expectations that NYT can be “left wing” while neocon/Israel first oligarchist liars instead.
US and Ukraine puppet rulers 100% instigated the war, and are the one who want it to continue.
So you’re saying Russia doesn’t want the war to continue? So why are they fighting in Ukraine then? What are their actual goals and when will the invasion stop?
It is categorically false that Russia is interested in ruling all of Ukraine.
What evidence makes you so sure, and how do you explain the fact that Russia tried to invade Kyiv? Or do you disagree that Russia tried to invade Kyiv?
So you’re saying Russia doesn’t want the war to continue? So why are they fighting in Ukraine then? What are their actual goals and when will the invasion stop?
When Ukraine agrees to stay neutral and not join NATO. That simple. Same as prior to war, or 1 month after war. They would idealy denazify, or at least eliminate persecutory anti-Russian laws, or if they don’t allow referendums for anti-nazi regions to join Russia.
What evidence makes you so sure, and how do you explain the fact that Russia tried to invade Kyiv? Or do you disagree that Russia tried to invade Kyiv?
The siege of Kyiv did motivate Ukrainian peace talks. Was likely a mistake to withdraw in good faith based on agreement in talks.
What’s the principle behind Russia being allowed to prevent Ukraine or another country from entering alliances? Why doesn’t this same principle apply to the Baltic states? And if Russia were to successfuly capture all of Ukraine, would it then have a right to demand similar neutrality from Moldova, Romania, and other states it would then borders? And does the same principle apply the other way - i.e. would it have been just for NATO to say Belarus can’t ally with Russia when Lukashenko took over and invaded them?
The US just had an election where the most pro Israel candidate was unanimously approved by entire political establishment. CIA owns every candidate in every foreign democracy, and for some reason needs NGOs in Georgia too. Existential questions about “sovereignty” have to be considered within context of evil and democracy itself, the best vector for pure evil and corruption. “Foreign influence” democracy talking points include allowing all US/Israel foreign influence and blocking all other. Romania SC corruption recently is extreme intervention to ensure NATO slavery.
What’s the principle behind Russia being allowed to prevent Ukraine or another country from entering alliances?
A different way to word this is why should Ukrainians be FORCED to suicide themselves and their property/prosperity to serve US ambitions of diminishment of Russia? The unliberated portions have lost the right to elections, and Zelensky’s platform was the exact opposite of war with Russia. Russia led the Minsk peace process to provide autonomy to Ukraine’s nazi persecuted eastern provinces. West’s hypocritical participation to delay in order to arm the nazis, was still acknowledging Ukraine’s nazi problem. Time to give nazis stronger ruler over Ukraine is your “what principle/right of interference is there”.
Ukraine and Canada should be free to diversify their trade. It is in their interests to be friendly with large trading partner. Russia should be allowed to build nordstream expansion when Ukraine chose extortionist fees for the pipelines in their country. US policy on nordstream has been a specfic war on Europe, extortionist profits to fund US weapon sales.
When you invoke the “axiom” of sovereignty to justify extreme evil and manipulated destruction of the sovereign, nuclear strikes on the root of the evil get justified by resistance to evil, whether or not you classify it as more evil, because you’re just asserting the right to fabricate war, and there is no principle that says you are right to win such a war.
And if Russia were to successfuly capture all of Ukraine, would it then have a right to demand similar neutrality from Moldova, Romania, and other states it would then borders?
NATO needs to be disbanded, and democracy restored to its members. If current corrupt subjugation persists, and Europe devoted to suicide for US empire power maximization, then certainly defense against NATO will depend on power balance to defend against NATO. US, adhering to its unprincipled invocation of evil pretending to be principle, has no moral issue in supporting Israel taking territory on “buffer zone pretext” followed by Israel 3 days later announcing that “this is great land to expand settlements in”, while bombing Southern Syria independents it pretends is ISIS, while arming/bribing actual ISIS in cooperation with Turkey support for same groups.
If principle mattered, secession of people who don’t like their rulers would be promoted. That they need protection from an ally by joining a different empire is unfortunate, but realist.
The crackheads elsewhere in this thread shout demonism of “Remember the history of soviet union” to justify evil today. It’s an unprincipled world.
What an insane rambling of lies you’ve put together there.
You have apparently never lived under Soviet occupation and I strongly suggest you read up on it before you even try to spew such garbage again.
Weird. Even the Libertarian CATO institute agrees with you:
The U.S. and NATO Helped Trigger the Ukraine War. It’s Not ‘Siding With Putin’ to Admit It
Ah yes, ancap libertarians. Lemmy users are famously fans of them and their philosophy.
Nazi apologist 🥳
Ad hominem’s, sad 😔 I’m more concerned with historical facts:
The Eurasian Chessboard: Brzezinski Mapped Out “The Battle for Ukraine” in 1997
It’s all about maintaining the US position as the world’s sole superpower
I wouldn’t say “Nazi apologist” is an ad hominem… It seems directly related to the discussion at hand.
I wasn’t aware Ukraine or Russia were National Socialists. Reducto ad Hitlerum.
Is there a “trying to fit everything you don’t like into a fallacy in order to dismiss it outright” fallacy?
There is the “fallacy fallacy,” but that’s slightly different I believe (though you’re also doing that one).
But I’ll indulge: You know nobody was referring specifically to the National Socialist party of 1930s Germany. Don’t be obtuse.
If you try to infer that the argument of your opponent can be dismissed because of their character, then it is a clear argumentum ad hominem
US and Ukraine puppet rulers 100% instigated the war
k
Peace-loving Russia could easily end this War of Ukrainian Aggression by no longer having its military inside Ukrainian borders. For some reason, they just love peace too hard to stop shooting.
Is true, i read that on flathearth.net
Putin said in a speech in Feb 2022 that the idea of Ukraine as an independent nation is a fiction and blames Lenin for its existence. He has always believed the entire area belongs to Russia as he said it himself.
Irrelevant context of insulting Ukraine. All that matters is conditions for ending/avoiding war. Not history that in restrospect proves Ukrainians to be assholes.
The fuck are you on about? Yanukovych, a known Russian puppet, being deposed means that US and Ukraine instigated the war?
Most of these “woke” people are also against the genocide of Palestinians, but go on I suppose.
Most of these “woke” people are also against the genocide of Palestinians, but go on I suppose.
Unfortunately, not sure about that,
How many people want Gaza, and Palestine to do the peace, without even talking about a two states solutions…
I often see, “we want the peace” but, that just mean, israel, you should calm on terror. Nothin more.
Its really like this meme, but for Palestine,I’m woke,
The democratic one-state solution would make whatever that state would be named (Israel/Palestine/Whatever) majority-Arab and majority-Muslim. That is why people should rationally be for it (because it’s an apartheid state otherwise) and should understand that it is the only roadmap to peace between Israelis and Palestinians that does not involve one group wiping out the other.
I agree, that why i said “without even”,
Because actually, that’s even not a state. On the status etc ok, but for real, they have no independance, to say outloud their conditions. They depends of others arabs states.But for the one state, without Israel being a Jew nation, national socialism for zionist and without a constitution…, there is a long road, and this road have to start somewhere. Recognizing the legitimacy of the palestinians as people, is maybe a start.
Ukraine violated minsk agreements. I’m tired of pretending otherwise.
Read less msmThey are Western-imperialists what did you expect ?
In an interview to Semen Pegov in 2024 former head of DPR Alexander Borodai explained that, in military terms, the Russian intervention in Ukraine should have started already in 2014 but Russia was not ready for that in economic, military and propaganda sense, which is why Russia entered the Minsk Agreements with no intention of complying, but it gave it time to prepare the full-scale invasion.
Straight from the horse’s mouth. Ukraine was forced to sign those agreements at gunpoint. Russia violated it repeatedly and never fully implemented it. And Borodai confirms Russia never intended to keep to the terms.
Bot detected. Russia violated ‘Trilateral Statement’ in 1993, when Ukraine agreed to transfer its nuclear warheads to Russia in exchange for security. And what do you think happened next, dum dum?
Lie less.
First to yourself, then to everyone you poison with your presence.
F Ukraine, they are not my problem
So you admit that you hate Ukraine and this is why you’re spouting bullshit lmao
I admit that I hate when propaganda machine whips people into supporting causes they should not care about.
I have 0 to gain from Israel killing Muslims or Ukraine fighting Russia.
This is exactly the same media companies that deny you a right to health care and sustain first past the poll system that keeps 2 shit parties in power.
When media machine tells u to do something - u need to do the fucking opposite.Deny them war, for as long as they deny u right for UHC.
This is where I’m going to have to tell you that I have more to gain from Ukraine fighting Russia than any American politican does. You see, I’m from a country that would be first in line to be invaded by Russia if NATO ceased to exist. I’ll never trust Russia the country, regardless of any purported left-right leaning of their leadership, farther than I could throw it. Which is less than one planck length because it’s a pretty big country, attached to the planet, I can’t throw it anywhere.
That’s not to say I hate all Russian people or anything. Most of the ones I’ve known have been chill and hate Putin too.
Some three decades ago, us Estonians, along with our brothers in Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine and many other country, managed to become free of Russian oppression. Nobody wants it again, and clearly Ukrainians are pretty proud of their independence too, otherwise they’d be laying down their arms en masse.
I do wish there could be peace, but Putin’s ego won’t allow him to settle without any significant territorial gains and while there’s war, I for sure am rooting for Ukrainians who, idk if you’ve heard, this, are the defensive side in this war. They did not roll tanks into Russia out of the blue.
Yanukovych was not a Russian puppet. IMF scuttled EU deal that he worked to sign. Unrealistic/electoral suicide conditions were placed on IMF loan. He wisely chose a Russian loan instead with no conditions. Black flag (US/Nazi) attack on protesters blamed on Yanukovych was the coup. CIA/State handpicked replacements for government, nazi massacre in Odessa, and apartheid ethnostate laws, led to liberation of Crimea. Russia’s peaceful Minsk process to provide autonomy to Donbas was used as a delay tactic by Empire to arm Ukrainians, but implicit in their participation was acknowledging Ukraine’s nazi problem, and nazi shelling of Donbas. Zelensky admitted his electoral campaign to implement Minsk and denazify Ukraine was a lie. Russian patience telling Ukraine it was time to end the BS with border troop amassments was met with increased massacres of Donbas civilians.
1 month after special operation started, Ukraine had agreed to Russia’s peace terms. US/UK bribed Zelensky into suiciding to the last Ukrainian instead. Blinken/US admitted it is a “strategic imperative to diminish Russia” which cannot be a view simulataneously held without provoking/perpetuating the war that is sold as a jobs program for weapons workers, and “future American control” (Blackrock is American and freely gives all its profits to all Americans) of Ukraine’s resources.
When pathethic evil lies that the 2014 Ukraine coup had any “Ukrainians love” component to it is repeated, you implicitly support every other lie of the US empire. Yeltsin was awesome liberator, and Putin terrible and corrupt is simply brainwashing based on each leader’s level of US empire puppetry. The only puppets in the world are those loyal to CIA. The rest are doing their best to survive through alliances/trade not subjugated to US subjugation.
Can I have some of what you’re having?
As long as you can use google translate for the talking points, I imagine you could do it too.
ChatGPT might even be the better option here. People give it a lot of flak, but it understands context better than Google Translate.
How do you even pretend to know what you’re talking about when so many of these lies are so damn obvious?
Remember that the original Canadian intent of the UN Peacekeepers was that they would forcibly create and enforce peace.
It was the USSR and the USA that objected to the concept.
Ireland has peacekeepers between Israel and Lebanon right now. They wouldn’t be there if “create peace” was one of the missions.
Peace must exist, however briefly, and then the peacekeepers place themselves in harm’s way to keep the peace.
Extend the mission to militarily “create peace” and suddenly you are just NATO/USA. How can either side trust a peace that was enforced upon them and not call it a defeat, whose borders are disputed for eternity? Every nationalist who wants to stir sentiment can just say “look what the British/Americans/UN imposed on us”. Outside forces drawing borders is pretty much the cause of 90% of warfare, civil and otherwise, for the last 80 years.
Similarly if most countries have a mutual defence pact, no one country will be able to invade another without being at war with literally the whole world.
I’m afraid that mutual defense isn’t as iron clad as you think. If Article 5 of NATO ever gets triggered you’ll get a masterclass on weaseling out of obligations. It’s ironic because Ukraine may already be receiving the kind of support a full NATO member is entitled to.
Unfortunately with Trump the US will try to weasel their way out. Europe knows too well what happens.
This does seem likely with Trump… but he’s also in bed with the military-industrial complex, which never misses a chance to get contracts.
It only works if you actually commit to it.
But imagine the implications if a country did not commit to it (bar an obvious one like Hungary or Turkey). They’ll likely get sanctioned, probably will have trouble entering any useful alliances for the next decade or so because no one trusts them anymore.
If one didn’t, sure. But what happens when NATO as a whole doesn’t defend Poland? What’s Poland going to do? Or even just Trump’s US?
The trick is that (Eastern) Europe is filled with NATO troops and material from all countries. You would need an extremely nasty retreat of these troops if you do not support (say) Poland. Also at the moment (officially) the US has stationed nuclear weapons in 6 European countries, and there are very likely more also in the form of submarines that are not known to the public. Retreating means leaving those weapons in Russian hands. Then again, maybe Trump does not care about that.
Article 5 was triggered by 9/11 and is the reason everyone followed America into Afghanistan
A Canadian was also the principal author of the UN declaration on human rights, and another was the reason NATO is a political as well as military alliance. We just keep winning!
Wait, why are tankies siding with magas? I’ve been intentionally away for a minute, what did I miss?
Did something major happen in the last three days? Or is this the usual redirection of hate after we’ve found something to rally around?
Fash and red fash are basically the same thing loyal to different empires.
Maga-Communism is a thing for a while: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_Hinkle
lie.
Russia tried to avoid this.
it was Ukraine who violated Minsk agreements.Ok. I’ll bite. Uh… What?
Bot detected. Russia violated ‘Trilateral Statement’ in 1993, when Ukraine agreed to transfer its nuclear warheads to Russia in exchange for security. And what do you think happened next, dum dum?
Weird, even Bill Clinton’s Secretary of Defense William Perry understood this:
The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace.
Weird that Russia invaded the sovereign nation of Chechnya murdering their democratically elected leader then just took the country saying it belonged to them.
This has nothing to do with the west. It’s just Russia doing what Russia has always done centuries before the U.S. existed. Putin only cares about taking over lands to make Russia what it used to be and will use any excuse. Allies in the west(like you) are only tiny toys Russia has been using.
Putin is a totalitarian autocratic dictator with imperialist ambitions, but that does not negate the globally destructive effects of American imperialism. This is not mutually exclusive.
The Ukrainian population clearly does not want to be under Russian rule. How did American imperialism cause this?
Some rando’s YouTube channel is the best way to frame your argument. Everyone knows that if it’s on YouTube, it must be true!
Very anti-capitalist of you. Be sure to like and subscribe!
NATO “expansion” is all an excuse. If Tyler beat up Timmy and a few kids in the class realized Tyler was a bully, and agreed that if any of them got attacked by Tyler they would all help out, and then Jenna hears of this alliance and asks to be a part of it, because she doesn’t want to get beat up by Tyler either, it doesn’t mean Tyler gets to beat up Jenna and steal her property. It means Tyler should stop assaulting others and stealing things all together and play nicer with other kids in the class.
Cite sources instead of relying on allegory, like this:
Among others, Biden’s CIA director, William J. Burns, has been warning about the provocative effect of NATO expansion on Russia since 1995. That’s when Burns, then a political officer in the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, reported to Washington that “hostility to early NATO expansion is almost universally felt across the domestic political spectrum here.” source
What am I looking for in that? The parts that say Ukriane is no threat to Russia, and that Russia amassing troops to start an invasion into Ukraine has nothing to do with NATO but rather their yearning to rebuild a Russian Empire?
Also, what do you have against allegory? Do you yearn to be the dictator of communication? Lol
As a Mexican, it’s always “fun” to read this American comic strips.
