• this is far beyond gender.

    Males are styled to be boring, girls to be pretty.

    the fact that a man can get married, work, and buried in the same suit is depressing as fuck.

    men need to feel pretty too.

  • SatansMaggotyCumFart@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Reminds me of when I used to go to my friend’s house and dress up in her clothes and have a threesome with her boyfriend.

    I’m a straight cis male though.

  • ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works
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    1 year ago

    I’m a guy but I was made an honorary girl once, way back in high school, so that I could attend an all-girls sleepover party. I was assigned the name “Isabelle”.

    (No, we didn’t do anything inappropriate.)

      • ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        Sorry, but my answer is going to be boring. This happened before transgender issues started getting a lot of attention, so I just thought it was funny and naughty. I wasn’t thinking about gender identity. Now I don’t feel like my gender is a big part of who I am, so I also don’t feel a strong reaction (either positive or negative) to the idea of having a different gender.

        At one point the girls (or should I say “the other girls”) were holding me down and trying to put makeup on me, but I wriggled loose. I do regret that a little, not because I wish I had had makeup on but because I think that if I had been less self-conscious back then, I would have had more fun and better stories to tell too.

          • ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works
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            1 year ago

            No, but your question reminds me of how before puberty, I wanted to play video games as a male character (girls had cooties, I suppose) but after puberty I often prefer to play as a female character. I still play RPGs as a male (I suppose it helps me get in character, plus romance subplots feel weird otherwise) but otherwise I usually choose female characters because they’re prettier (not necessarily in a sexual way). I liked paying Guild Wars because many of the women’s outfits were just gorgeous. One character class went into battle wearing my choice of fancy dress. That was fun.

            (The Guild Wars graphics look a lot worse than I remembered. They seemed really good back then.)

              • ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works
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                1 year ago

                Sexual attraction does play a role - I’m not aroused by playing a game, but attractiveness is a type of beauty and I enjoy looking at beauty. I also think that women are just prettier than men even in an entirely non-sexual way, but I wonder how much of that is simply a reflection of being taught that women are the beautiful gender rather than an innate aesthetic preference. That segues into an interest in traditionally feminine social roles. I admit that I’m a bit envious of women, not because I consider myself a woman or want to become a woman, but because women get to be beautiful, delicate, desirable, etc. and men generally don’t.

                • foxglove (she/her)@lazysoci.al
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                  1 year ago

                  That all makes sense, desiring looking at something beautiful or attractive.

                  Re envy: that’s interesting, so you would like to be able to be like women in that you would like to be able to be beautiful, delicate, desirable and so on?

                  I think some men can be considered beautiful and desirable - I’m sure women would describe men like Pedro Pascal as being beautiful and desirable 😅 But I hear what you mean that in general women are seen as desired and men as the one desiring, in a sense. I think that’s largely social, though I do think estrogen does create traits that we might see as beautiful, such as soft skin, for example.

                  I guess I wonder if you have any examples of beautiful, delicate, or desirable men, and whether you would prefer to be that, or if you could press a button if you would just choose to have been born a woman instead?

  • NOT_RICK@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Wouldn’t this just be considered cross dressing? Not sure if the language has evolved there though.

    Now I’m thinking of Eddie Izzard.

    Edit: ok now I’m really out of date I didn’t know she goes by Suzy now. I legit thought she was cis

    • kayzeekayzee@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      1 year ago

      Yea cross dressing is still a popular thing, with this greentext joke ignores. Though a lot of closeted trans women would also be extatic at the situation presented here.

      Also! Woa! I didn’t know that! Good for her good for her

      • LH0ezVT@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        Isn’t that literally crossdressing? Someone enjoying dressing up as the opposing gender, yet being cis otherwise? For example, just because they like the aesthetic, or because it is a fetish for them?

        • nikki@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          1 year ago

          “still cis tho” is used a lot in trans places as a joke for trans people in denial, which i think is what this is poking at

    • foxglove (she/her)@lazysoci.al
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      1 year ago

      Izzard identifies as genderfluid[94][95] and calls herself “somewhat boy-ish and somewhat girl-ish”.[18] She uses the word “transgender” as an umbrella term.[96] When asked in 2019 what pronouns she preferred, Izzard responded, “either ‘he’ or ‘she’” and explained, “If I am in boy mode, then ‘he’, or girl mode, ‘she’”.[97] In 2020, she requested she/her pronouns for an appearance on the TV show Portrait Artist of the Year and said she wants “to be based in girl mode from now on”.[98] In March 2023, she announced that she would begin using the name Suzy in addition to Eddie, saying that she is “going to be Suzy Eddie Izzard”.[2][1] Explaining that she had wanted to use the name Suzy since she was 10 years old, she added that people “can choose” which name they want to use to refer to her,[1][2] and that she would keep using Eddie Izzard as her public name since it is more widely recognised.[99]

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Izzard#Personal_life

      for the lazy ^

  • Rachelhazideas@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Why are we redefining someone else’s gender for them instead of redefining what it means to be a man? Normalize make up and ‘girl clothes’ for men. Normalize looking pretty for men. Regardless if someone declares themselves trans or cis, believe them.

    • exactly.

      I’d like to wear makeup without being accused of being gay (i am gay but not because I like makeup)

      I’d like to wear dresses without being accused of being drag (I’m not even sure what that means)

      I’d like to be pretty without being called weak (i can bench press your mother)

      people should be allowed to be who they are.

    • Rampsquatch@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      The only person who can tell a person what their gender is is that person themselves. Even if it’s obvious to everyone around them, it’s not one’s job to dictate to another something that personal.

      • saimen@feddit.org
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        1 year ago

        Or we could just abolish all these gender stereotypes and acknowledge everyone has one biological sex (except rare genetic variants) but it doesn’t matter and no one has to know which genitals you have in everyday life.

        • Rampsquatch@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          You know that’s not going to happen tho, right? People aren’t going to just forget all the centuries upon centuries of reinforcement of these roles and expectations. All you can ask is that we be kind to one another.

    • saimen@feddit.org
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      1 year ago

      That’s what bothers ma a bit about “being trans”. Why is it considered as having the wrong biological sex and not just disrupting the gender stereotypes?

      • Rachelhazideas@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        It’s because gender presentation is only one component of it, and the other is biochemistry.

        Trans people experience dysphoria partly because their bodies do not produce the amount of sex hormones (progestogens we, androgens, and estrogens) at a ratio that matches what their brain needs. It’s like putting gas into a diesel engine. Their brain expects their body to develop in a certain way, and it does not.

        • saimen@feddit.org
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          1 year ago

          How can this be differentiated of body dysphoria disorders where one perceives their own body as overly flawed or distorted without it being like that? Serious question. I am genuinely concerned about this.

          • AnarchistArtificer@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            I think Personally, I don’t know. However, I am a cis person who has had body dysmorphia. Even when I was unhealthily thin, I perceived myself as disgustingly fat. I genuinely believed that things would be better if I just lost “one more kilo — just one more, and things will all be fine and I’ll start seeing myself as a human deserving of respect rather than just a disgusting lump. Yes, I know I said that 5 kilos ago, but just one more will do it”.

            There was a fundamental mismatch between my perceptions and reality. As a small aside, your comment mentioned “body dysphoria”, when I suspect you meant “body dysmorphia” (and “gender dysphoria” is what many trans people experience). I’m not highlighting this to be a persnickety asshole, but because I think the (body) dysmorphia vs (gender) dysphoria contrast is interesting. Whilst my experience was rooted in disproportionately magnified perceptions of flaws, gender dysphoria is rooted in reality: consider someone who is assigned male at birth who later comes out as a trans woman. If she decides to go for medical transition (which typically involves hormones and surgery), these are pretty serious changes that wouldn’t make sense if someone already believed they were a cis woman. Rather, the gender dysphoria that many experience arises from an acute understanding of both the biological reality of their body, and the sociocultural reality of how people tend to perceive that body. (I also want to note, as a biochemist, that the way that our bodies respond to hormones is also part of biological reality. Like, if someone assigned male at birth starts taking estrogen, their body will go “cool, guess we’re making titties now”. Human nature, if it exists as a unified concept at all, is fundamentally fluid, and I wish we spoke about this more)

            The key thing in distinguishing between gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia is the proposed treatment. Every kilogram I lost caused me to become more miserable, more caught up in my distorted perceptions, and more physically frail. Even before I had lost an unhealthy amount of weight, it would have been patently clear to an outside observer how bullshit my “just one my kilogram” spiel was. For trans people undergoing medical transition though, it’s a completely different story. Whilst I’m told by multiple friends that first starting HRT does feel like taking the red pill in the matrix, the ongoing reality of it isn’t quite so dramatic. Many of the changes are permanent, but they’re gradual enough that with support and oversight from medical professionals who understand trans people, there is so much opportunity to gauge whether this is the right path for a person. Whilst there are some people who regret transitioning, the regret rate for gender confirmation treatments is stunningly low compared to other cosmetic surgeries (I don’t have the number to hand, sorry). In terms of positive treatment outcomes, there are oodles of evidence that show that medical transition is absurdly beneficial — it’s a strong enough case that even if I didn’t care at all about the wellbeing of trans people, there’s a super strong case for the economic benefits of good access to gender affirming healthcare.

            To put it simply, the difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria is evident in how they respond to treatment. The therapy I underwent focussed on unwinding and unlearning the false perceptions of myself. In contrast, conversion therapy is not just an inhumane way to respond to gender dysphoria, but proven to be harmful. On the other side of things, indulging my delusions would have just deepened my spiral, whereas medically supported gender transition is proven to save lives and increase trans people’s wellbeing.

            (N.b. I have focussed on medical transition here because that’s the angle that naturally arises from your question. However, not all trans people who experience gender dysphoria necessarily want to medically transition, finding that social transition (living as one’s chosen gender) is enough for them. I feel it important to highlight that many trans people I have known have expressed that they feel there would be far fewer trans people feeling they need to undergo medical transition if the world wasn’t so shitty to people who are gender non conforming. Also notable is that not all trans people experience gender dysphoria, and there are plenty of trans people who actively want to get away from thinking about things in terms of gender dysphoria, because they feel that it promotes an overly medical approach that can be harmful, such as how access to trans healthcare is increasingly being gatekept for bullshit reasons (their bigotry is transparent because in blocking access to trans healthcare, they are actively ignoring a pretty strong scientific consensus). Honestly though, I’m not the right person to discuss these nuances; I am in community with many trans people, but there’s a lot that I just simply can’t understand because I don’t have any direct lived experience of being trans. Furthermore, the trans community is far from a monolith, so discussions around terms like gender dysphoria, medical transition etc. ongoing.)

          • Rachelhazideas@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Imagine any other medical condition where a person’s appearance is drastically altered but not critically endangering their health, conditions like massive benign tumors, skin conditions like psoriasis, alopecia, etc

            We wouldn’t question them if they wanted it fixed due to body dysmorphia or dysphoria because as fellow humans we can understand what is like to have a drastic unwanted change to your own body that you did not agree to.

            Remember that puberty too, is a drastic change to ones body. Imagine if you had gone through puberty expecting to be fine, and then you go through the sensory torture of developing features on your body that you do not want. Imagine waking up the next day with the body of the opposite gender, except this is what it’s like every day for the rest of your life. You might personally be okay with this, but for many, the internal experience of having a mismatched brain and biological sex is unbearable.

      • Baggie@lemmy.zip
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        1 year ago

        Are you talking the difference between something like cross dressing and being trans? I’ll dive into it as I’ve had this on my mind recently.

        My understanding is the main focus of being trans is the change in gender identity. Biological sex doesn’t really come into it, it’s all about social roles, expectations etc. A man can wear woman’s clothing and still be a man after all.

        I can’t really speak for people’s experiences when it comes to them not physically matching their views on their gender. It’s a deeply individual thing I imagine. Physical changes, hormones etc are not required to be trans, though they can be a part of it.

        The point that caught me for a bit was my views on gender equality. I was of the opinion that gender/sex stereotypes shouldn’t really define people, but that clashed with the idea that people sometimes desire the stereotypes that go along with gender.

        It’s a tricky thing to want both true equality but also respect differences in gender, because in some ways they aren’t always compatible. But we aren’t the result of our ideals so much as we are the result of our upbringings, and gender is a large part of our identity. It’s baked into us, girls want pretty dresses, boys want power tools, and you will be treated different based on what you present as, regardless of how bullshit that might be.

        The way I see it, it’s only fair to say fuck it, you can be whichever gender you want. I still think stereotypes are something we should move away from ultimately, but that’s a long road that I’ll never live to see the end of, and if someone can be happier today, I don’t see why that’s a problem.

        • saimen@feddit.org
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          1 year ago

          That’s what I was also thinking and can understand. What I don’t understand is to really physically alter and damage your body to match your physiology to your desired gender. Is this really necessary? In the end it’s only a superficial change as well and factually and genetically you will still be of a certain biological sex.

          • Baggie@lemmy.zip
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            1 year ago

            As I said, it’s not mandatory. It’s a personal choice, not much different to a piercing, tattoo or bodymod in my mind. I don’t particularly care for any of those, but it’s not my body that it’s being done to either, so my feelings are largely irrelevant.

            Beyond that, the motivations of any other person are going to be somewhat alien, because people cannot truely know or communicate experiences beyond a very surface level. You or I cannot fully understand, because we haven’t experienced it. We have to trust that stuff like this is what they want, because that is what they’re telling us with the limited communication abilities humans have.

  • lugal@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    1 year ago

    Sounds like gender euphoria: being totally fine with your assigned gender but feeling much better in a different one