american believing they have a left, Center left is the extreme end of the left in america, theres no lefter than that. most of them are on center right.
I’m sure there’s an actual Left in the USA, but it’s not covered by any of the big parties.
Are you from one of the countries where the far right was just named most popular? If not, I’ll throw a “yet” in, because you talk like someone who lets perfection get in the way of not sees.
Truthfully, do you think voting for the less evil is a better course of action than directly addressing an issue? If the Rs say “deport all non-whites” and the Ds say “deport non-whites with records”, do you really think we should vote for the lesser evil instead of stopping the racist deportations?
If chipping away at shit works one way it works the other. Nobody is shifting the pendulum in massive strokes overnight. And so you accept things that don’t necessarily comport with your goal, or you get what we got.
I’m also from Jersey and your name speaks to me.
I really don’t think we can say the pendulum isn’t being shifted in massive strokes overnight when this administration is literally destroying our way of life in massive strokes every hour. The time for the “lesser evil” was ages ago. The time for direct action is now.
I’m always glad to stumble upon another NJ person on Lemmy! My anarchism flies out of the window when it comes to loving Jersey. It’s my home, despite people arguing I’m not from here due to the color of my skin. In my lifetime, sea level rising will reshape what this great state looks like. Homelessness in Atlantic City is bad now, it’s going to be a thousand times worse when the area is under water. This is why I don’t think we can settle for small changes. We need drastic actions, yesterday.
We have two viable political parties.
Fascist extremists and their enablers. Vote blue no matter who, so maybe the fascists won’t come for you.
We have leftists with no one to vote for, shut out of politics by liberal NIMBYs who want good things to happen, they just don’t want to see them. More concerned about the value of their house than the value of human life. We have extreme leftists, they’re just not allowed to participate. And as of yet, none of them exist in enough numbers in the same place to start throwing Molotovs
There is no far left political party but there are plenty of people who are far left. Yes, even by the European standards of the left.
I dont get it
That was a good episode!
Man, how fucking right wing do you need to be to consider liberalism to be left wing?
American.
First Past The Post means voting for far right liberal capitalists or literally figurative nazis.
Any sane person, including the socialists and anarchists, would vote against the nazis.
So they’re both right.
It doesn’t matter who you vote for.
Democrats rig their primaries.
No it doesn’t.
If Ken Martin fixes primaries, one look at Minnesota tells you he’s so bad at keeping progressives out of office he might as well not be trying.
Either way, we have a solid chance of a decent dem candidate making it to the general. And if they do the general is a shoe in.
If Ken Martin fixes primaries, one look at Minnesota tells you he’s so bad at keeping progressives out of office he might as well not be trying.
I always say this, what happened to the Americans who stopped the Gilded Age and ushered in the two Roosevelts? Americans forgot how to mobilise.
No, the wealthy united against everyone else despite any differences during FDR.
This led to the Business Plot, which failed because the puppet general backed out and snitched on the wealthiest capitalists for trying to overthrow FDR …
And not a single person was punished.
They didn’t give up, they just decided buying both parties was easier than a coup, and maintained the illusion of choice.
We didn’t “forget” shit, we had our country stolen from us by the wealthiest citizens.
We didn’t “forget” shit, we had our country stolen from us by the wealthiest citizens.
I mean before FDR, during the Gilded Age. People successfully mobilised to curtail monopolists and other industry tycoons. I think Americans did forget to do that.
far right liberal capitalists or literally figurative nazis.
if you’re on the wrong side of us ‘foreign policy’ both of these groups will exterminate you all the same.
the bipartisan consensus between them is that capitalist exploitation continues
True, but maybe with small changes in the sociopolitical fabric of the US, eventually, in some decades, US foreign policy can change also. Western European powers are STILL up to no good in Africa and West Asia and they have been at it for hundreds of years… Small steps, right? 😔
No,
I think we’ve decided this. The left (rightfully) hates the Democrats.
Yes, but I hate Trump more.
An inch of gained ground is better than a mile of lost ground.What gained ground?
No ground was gained Trump won. Decades of progress erased in 7 months. The genocide in Israel has accelerated. And our economy is crashing.
If Dems won and kept things as they were 7 months ago everything would be demonstrably better than they are now.
Would there still be issues? Of course there are always issues, but it would have been much better.
That’s true I guess. Way too superficial for my liking, but that’s outside the scope of this conversation. The person I replied to said there would be (small) gains from electing Harris, not just less losses, so I was asking for them yo elaborate.
To address small gains I could have seen at the very least Roe v. Wade being codified by a Harris White House.
Then why didn’t they do that in Biden’s term?
Republican controlled house and senate following midterms. Roe was overturned after mid-terms
While this is all true, i can’t imagine that the left would have been celebrating a democratic win today if she won in the fall. If they truly wanted a democratic win (or to gain an inch) they would have pinched their noses and voted for Kamala
Gay marriage rights, the railroad unions got their sick leave, the rich were being audited created serious revenue gains and if the DNC were in charge then the TCJA wouldn’t have been renewed meaning even more taxing of the rich.
The railroad unions thing is patently false (they wanted a lot more sick leave and a lot more than sick leave), but also: I’m asking what would’ve improved, not what would’ve not deteriorated or what improved in the past.
Okay I’m sorry that decades of evidence of improvements aren’t enough to convince you that things would have improved again, but then my statement about the TCJA expiring in 2026 and not becoming permanent still qualifies as an answer. We would be taxing the fucking rich. How can you even pretend that’s not what we should be doing?
Leftists hate democrats so much they helped vote in Trump instead of a very decent woman twice.
The only thing leftists hate more then democrats are other leftists.
Two things:
Leftists did vote for Clinton. (You’ll recall she got more votes.) That is despite the fact that she was a piece-of-shit candidate that we didn’t want, and didn’t win the primary.
Kamala was just plain stupidity. You can’t look poor people in the eye for three months and tell them you won’t change anything and still claim to be decent, much less a legitimate presidential candidate.
Respectfully, you’re being very unreasonable. You don’t get to punch the voters in the face and then whine that you broke your hand.
Right…here we go with the purity tests again. If you don’t believe exactly what I believe, you dont deserve my vote. Its this attitude that got us a second Trump presidency, and how’s that working out for us?
Purity test = genocide good or bad.
If you fail this test, you deserve everything that happens to you.
If there is anything worthwhile for being a purity test, it’s being pro or anti genocide.
How can people expect any party who doesn’t care about genocide, to care about democracy?
Biden still got the most votes of any presidential candidates.
I’m rubbing the non-voter’s noses in the mess they made and hope they’ll do better in the midterms.
Without COVID Biden would have lost too.
Though, it was important to see Democrats demonstrate, publicly, that brain damage and genocide are not disqualifiers for the presidency in their view.
Biden’s ass cancer would have been a better president than the one we ended up with.
How’s the genocide working out, I think Trump is about to give away Ukraine and Israel is about to take over Gaza City, no?
Your profile is interesting. It’s almost like you believe a minority can do everything because you’re “right.” Are you in the burn it all down camp?
Artist, musical performer, and former derby skater from the Midwest.
I’m single, childless, and married to freedom and adventure.
ACAB, Anti-War, and I hate Democrats, Republicans, and billionaires.
Kamala wasn’t a great candidate. But there were 2 options, and the other is deploying the military against civilians, ignoring due process.and court orders, and ordering states to imprison the homeless while ensuring an economic collapse that will create more homeless people.
Ignoring the problems with Bidens’ and then Harris’ campaign, which were disastrous and failed to earn the votes of many working class Americans, is precisely how the Democrats will continue to lose even in the face of unpopular fascist opposition.
Zohran Mamdani has been a microcosm of this paradigm shift. Progressive policies are incredibly popular because they address the material harms people face. Anti-israel policies are incredibly popular and only getting more so as Israel and the US continue to facilitate this genocide.
The corporate neoliberalism of the Democratic Party establishment is a critical part of the problem that got us to fascism. We need progressive candidates at all levels to dramatically reform the party and represent the working class constituency it’s supposed to represent.
I think you have definitely nailed the issues of the most of the Democratic Party politicians in power. The Democratic Party Politicians don’t necessarily represent the interests of their leftist-liberal voters. They probably will continue to not do so if they are in safe seats and funded by corporations.
What needs to change at the local level, state level, and federal level is implementing an Alternative Voting system. As this is the key way we will be able to get progressive politicians, that support progressive policies, into power.
NYC had Ranked Choice Voting and it likely contributed in part to people feeling to vote their conscience and list Mamdani at the top of the ticket.
it has been shown that many counties voting places were rigged for trump, so she wouldve won anyways, if she hadnt actually conceded too quickly. Also dems dont fight election rigging by the gop at all.
Yeah, true progressives are great.
But that doesn’t mean you should hand power to treasonous, fascist rapists when your favorite candidate doesn’t get the nomination.
The Democratic Party did hand over power to treasonous fascist rapists, and they did so by running such a bad campaign, despite the consistent polling and public sentiment that showed exactly what needed to change. That’s precisely the issue I’m getting at. The Democratic Party establishment clearly prefers losing to fascists over representing everyday americans
harris was not voted for, purely out of sexisms, sorry but even people on the left can be a little sexist.
Leftists aren’t numerous enough to have had much an effect on the election.
But I will confirm your second statement.
You don’t have to be authoritarian to be a leftist.
Of course not. In fact if there is anything I associate with leftist ideologies it’s anti-authoritarianism.
Tell that to ml lol
Unpaid interns working for Russia don’t count as being “leftist” lol
They are slaves. Bots are slaves.
They’re working for you, asshole. They developed the software you’re using right now.
No point, I’d just get banned.
Do not split.
But what is happening in Hong Kong is they come up with a slogan, which is translated as Do Not Split, which is, we know that some people are willing to be confrontational with riot police.
And when they are, that’s going to cost the state in terms of not only resources, but it’s going to cost the state in terms of political capital and support. And we know that there are some people who are not willing to do that. And we are going to abide by the protocol of Do Not Split, which means that we’re not going to criticize them openly, and they’re not going to criticize us openly.
If we’re the pacifists, we’re not going to have them criticize us for being sort of like, I don’t know, limpid or flaccid or not courageous or whatever. And we’re not going to criticize them for being more confrontational. And the thing is that the support is also tacit.
Your quote contains exactly zero material applicable to the American left. The disagreement between leftists and liberals is a lot deeper than what tactic they prefer to reach the same goal, and liberals have repeatedly and incessantly attacked and sabotaged the left for their own ends. I mean hell, “and they’re not going to criticize us openly”? Have you seen how liberals talk about the left?
^ example of splitting
It’s not, at least not as described in the parent comment.
^
Yes please.
At this point, I just want the lesser of the two evils.
You know, like leftist vs a fucking lunatic fascist pedo rapist who is burning our country to the ground as if his addled slimy ass is going to take any of it with him when he finally cacks.
Yes, we need things to get cleaned out of the Barney Horror Picutre Show, but if we give up ground about twice more, it’ll just be full-on Right vs Right. The next person that goes in has to be left of Biden at the very least or no margins will be made. We couldn’t even get we’ll stop funding the atrocities in Gaza out of the “left” candidate last time.
Should it have been K? F yeah in comparison, but give us something to drag people out of the house to vote for.
People here need reminding that every time the Dems lose, they go to the center to find voters. You can’t play Mexican standoff by protest-no-voting (or 3rd party) because they have an out: the center voter. And the center voter actually shows up.
This reminds me of that meme (article?) someone posted a couple days ago about some dude who loves metal gives up trying to explain to his family that he’s not goth, cuz it’s easier to just lets his family ogle at his ‘goth phase’.
So… same energy - whether or not “left” and “democrat” are synonymous depends entirely on the person I’m talking to… they either already know, or I don’t have the energy to try to teach them.
That’s sort of the point of my post. It’s trying to poke fun on people not knowing the difference and depending on how the person define the terms. Instead, they called this post a “psyops” and I guess I also inadvertently caused another leftist/liberal (in-)fighting depending how you look at it.
Agreed. But also, you can just ignore those terms entirely and focus on actual issues…
100%
This is pointless identitarian bullshit that does nothing to stop the fascists currently in charge of the United States.
It all makes me a bit suspicious.
I hate liberals more than conservatives because at least with conservatives they don’t go around pretending to be on my side while doing heinous shit. Conservatives just do the heinous shit without the pretense.
I wish these memes came with a political compass clarification of what these terms exactly mean for the author.
Any “left” that doesn’t promote human rights can fuck right off back to the dictatorship it came from.
I don’t call tankies “left”.
They’re calling themselves that, and probably calling you a Liberal (that is now a derogatory term apparently)
But they are?
Not all rightists are authoritarians, but all authoritarians are rightists. Being leftist literally means being anti-authoritarian. Tankies are classic right wing authoritarians cosplaying as leftist. Whether someone thinks their brand of authoritarianism is more benevolent is not the metric that determines their position on the political spectrum, it is whether power is evenly distributed (leftist) or consolidated (rightist).
I just redefined 200 years of political theory in one lemmy paragraphs. Look at me, I’m a dumbocrat!
Not all rightists are authoritarians, but all authoritarians are rightists
That’s not what being politically right or left entails. Economic rightism involves private ownership of the means of production, not whether “power” (whatever you mean by that word) is concentrated or spread out. Economic leftism involves even distribution of the means of production at least to the point it can no longer be used for personal gain but for societal development. You’re redefining right-wing to mean authoritarian, which isn’t how the term is used in political science. By your definition, you’ve made “left-wing authoritarianism” impossible, which makes your claim unfalsifiable but also meaningless in the usual political context.
Tankies are classic right wing authoritarians cosplaying as leftist.
What does this even mean?
That’s not what being politically right or left entails.
I am using the classic definition of the political spectrum, which was defined by the French Revolution. The Egalitarian revolutionaries sat on the left side of the hall and the institutional nobility on the right. I reject the Cold War era Capitalist propaganda doublespeak re-definition in which it means “whatever rightists want it to mean to more easily demonize the enemies of Capitalism.” I also reject the notion that Marx, who was born decades after the Revolution, was the only leftist philosopher or that he, ironically, would hold a monopoly on leftism.
You seem to have accepted the Capitalist fallacy that social and economic policy can be separated, or that power and wealth and not one and the same. An economy controlled by a few is not leftist, it is feudal and rightist. While the political spectrum is not a binary, leftism always aims for egalitarian ends. Egality involves equitable sharing in authority and economic power. One who shares in an economy but holds no power does not share in the economy. One who shares in power and is destitute does not share in power. These things are at odds. They are fundamental opposites.
What does this even mean?
Tankies support consolidation of power (both “violent” and “economic” authority) into the hands of a few. This is rightist no matter the justification. Benevolent authoritarianism is still authoritarianism and authoritarianism is always rightist (consolidation of power/authority/wealth). They use leftist terminology to justify their authoritarianism, but it does not change the fact that the means and ends are authoritarian in the extreme. If only a minority have authority (control of violence/force) then those few also have complete ownership of the economy, which is the opposite of leftist. If only a minority have wealth (control of the economy) then those few also have the power to buy authority. There is no difference between social power and economic power. Leftism requires egality in both domains or else it dies.
You’re using a moral definition of “left” whereas in political science, “left” and “right” are only descriptive terms about economic organization (collective vs. private ownership respectively), and authoritarian/libertarian describes political power distribution. Your definition makes “left-wing auth” impossible by definition, but that’s a linguistic choice, not an empirical fact.
The problem with collapsing the axes is that it stops us from describing history accurately. Under your framework, a regime like the USSR which abolished private ownership and implemented central planning can’t be left because it wasn’t egalitarian in political power. But in mainstream classification, it’s economically far left and politically authoritarian a very different thing than right-wing authoritarianism.
Yes, wealth and power influence each other, but they are not identical; otherwise we wouldn’t need different terms. A billionaire under a strong democracy can have wealth without full political authority, and a military dictator in a collapsed economy can have political authority without wealth. Conflating them makes analysis less precise, not more.
just sparkling authoritarianism
How did you figure out I was a genie?
This seems to be changing. Liberals are waking up to the realities that leftists have been working against them the entire time.
All the problems mask on socialists pretend socialism solves are solved by a decent government in a liberal capitalist society.
