Title of the (concerning) thread on their community forum, not voluntary clickbait. Came across the thread thanks to a toot by @Khrys@mamot.fr (French speaking)
The gist of the issue raised by OP is that framework sponsors and promotes projects lead by known toxic and racists people (DHH among them).
I agree with the point made by the OP :
The “big tent” argument works fine if everyone plays by some basic civil rules of understanding. Stuff like code of conducts, moderation, anti-racism, surely those things we agree on? A big tent won’t work if you let in people that want to exterminate the others.
I’m disappointed in framework’s answer so far
First, Omarchy doesn’t need funding or partners. It’s backed by a Nazi multimillionaire.
Second, the whole apolitical argument is bullshit. Everything is political. Support for a distro that doesn’t really need support by nature of being a child of a Nazi multimillionaire is a support for that Nazi multimillionaire.
“We didn’t support them because of that” means nothing. The support still sends a message. Just like artist loses control over interpretation of their art the moment they release it, people lose control over interpretation of their actions the moment they act. Does it sound fair? Maybe not, but it’s how reality works.
It hurts to see posts saying “Framework is not political”… Like damn it is, what do you think the mission of framework is?
“Technology is apolitical” that’s entirely false. A load of decisions about tech are made politically, or at least with a lawyer behind you telling what is and what isn’t legal (these laws that were decided… By politics).I think tech communities will have a major split in the coming years.
On one side you have the “apolitical devs” who don’t understand they are making political decisions every damn day. They claim to be centrists but it’s all a facade for neo liberalism.
On the other side, you have people that understand the reality we live in, that understand every decision they take is gonna affect the human that is using their software. That we are responsible for what happens into the world and that allowing fascists to spread their ideas will end badly.Staying neutral is giving your ok to fascism and racism. Staying silent is how these ideas and movements take place and is a political choice.
If you force every person to pick a team, you may not like the result. gestures at current president
People who are happy to not take a political stance on everything, particularly in their professional life, is good.
Everything is politics and staying neutral only means you let the current political majority decide for you.
In this case it’s framework taking political sides by working with a vocal far right racist. If they want to stay neutral, they shouldn’t be promoting them.We have the current president because most Americans did not pick a side, and our garbage electoral system allows a plurality to win
I may not like who everyone chooses to represent themselves in government… but the government actually reflecting the people proportionally would still be a good thing.
So should we all stop using Lemmy because it was made by a Tankie?
Not the same thing. Equating the far left and the far right is nonsensical, as horseshoe theory isn’t a real thing. Giving room for such thought only strengthens extreme right positions and is exclusively used to either distract from or downplay far right commentary or elevate liberal/centrist thought as the only acceptable path. It’s interestingly never used by people from the far left themselves.
Your’s either an ignorant take or one with an agenda, which is it?
Tankies, afaik, are just delusional. Do they support murder of non-whites?
And uh…the fact that defederating the tankies is a regular topic of conversation here is 100000000x better than the big tent response.
Tankies widely support the destruction of the Ukrainians as a people and culture. One of the definitions of genocide. Are you going to stop using every software written, or partly written, by a tankie?
Can you point me to that (must be lemmy dev or moderator appointed by a lemmy dev to be comparable)? All I’ve seen are posts on power tripping where people get banned because they say things like “Russia started it” or “Tiananmen lol, amirite”. I’ve not seen anything to the extent you’re describing and would be interested in seeing it.
And uh, the problem isn’t the use of software. Nothing in this thread is about the use of software.
the destruction of the Ukrainians as a people and culture
This is a huge part of Putin’s current war; a war tankies widely support. You need sources for these things?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War
If you’re going to hold lemmy to the same standard we are holding lemmy to in this thread, absolutely yes. Did you not see the detailed links provided by oop?
And uh …don’t the tankies not believe in those allegations? Isn’t that their whole thing, that western media is lying about it? Ie delusional like I said.
don’t the tankies not believe in those allegations? Isn’t that their whole thing, that western media is lying about it? Ie delusional like I said.
Of course they don’t believe the piles of evidence. The point is they support the genocide either way. If we are changing the standard to purely what delusional people believe, not what they actually support, then there is a ton of people on the right we should stop bitching about, as they don’t believe their policies are harmful either…
So, back to the original question, are you going to use a software written, or just partly written, by tankies? Or is it possible that one can use a software written by people who have differing political opinions from you?
Certainly a tough question. Use Lemmy, okay, but would you send financial contributions to said Tankie? I wouldn’t, and I would judge someone that did. I don’t think anyone can be expected to evaluate the moral virtues of the developer for every technology they use. That’s a supply chain nightmare. But, given the small number of people we directly sponsor, maybe then it’s appropriate to have some standards?
As a non-US citizen, I actually consider /any/ American company that has not moved to be complicit in fascism. At the same time, I havn’t completely stopped patronizing American companies, so I’m not living up to my own standard. I suspect everyone is a little hypocritical.
It’s literally impossible to use the internet (or even computers?) without patronizing American companies, at least indirectly.
As a non-US citizen, I actually consider /any/ American company that has not moved to be complicit in fascism.
This is an absolutely insane position to take.
This is an absolutely
insanerealistic position to take.There, FTFY.
It’s certainly not feasible for every company to leave America, but I wouldn’t argue with a boycott of American goods and services on general - and I’m saying this as an American citizen who’s not exactly thrilled about this mess, either.
no, because “tankies” are not at all equivalent to nazis.
No we use Lemmy and make fun of the Tankies as revenge
Using Lemmy isn’t giving that tankie money.
Using lemmy increases its popularity which in turn leads to more donations or other benefits.
Thats a valid point, but I still feel its a less direct form of support, which was my point. I dont feel that it is the same as directly financially supporting a project you morally disagree with.
It is is you support lemmy’s development which for a foss platform its expected users do
But not required. If I do not morally support the developer I can instead choose to financially support individual instances, or other projects like Piefed or mbin.
My point here is that comparing this situation to using Lemmy is a bad comparison. Supporting Framework is pretty much exclusively via financial support, the same is not true for Lemmy.
Doesn’t seem clear cut at all after reading the whole thread. You support one thing who’s creator has questionable views but not the other. The main difference seems to be that you like one and not the other.
What doesn’t seem clear-cut? My only point here was that using Lemmy does not directly fund the creator of it.
You support one thing who’s creator has questionable views but not the other. The main difference seems to be that you like one and not the other.
You’re making assumptions about me. I use Piefed, not Lemmy. I also do not believe that this situation is enough for me to not support Framework. All I’m saying here is that supporting Framework is for the most part direct financial support, while one can easily support the Lemmy as a whole, without providing financial support to the creator with questionable views.
I don’t care to debate about whether this makes supporting Lemmy better or worse than supporting Framework. I only on what I feel is an oversight in the comparison made by the comment I originally replied to.
The main difference is that fascism and racism are fundamentally destructive ideologies/traits, while tankie is just a derogatory term for folks on the far left used by people that think extreme left and extreme right are the same kind if evil. It’s a display of arrogant ignorance, congratulations.
Many would argue tankies live by an ideology with a comparable body count to fascism.
It’s a significant factor for sure. However, this year Reddit has accelerated its enshittification since the API schism and is far too risky to continue use anyway. The only viable alternative to Lemmy that I see is Mastodon and I never really got into the Twitter format.
A naive answer:
Replace “Lemmy” with a “Nazi manufactured gun”.
A less naive answer:
Consider various meanings “use” takes in your question and decide accordingly.
If the far right would stop using Lemmy that would be fantastic news. (inb4 hurr durr echo chamber!!!11!)
Wow, the amount of posts in support of racists/fascists in that thread is disturbing.
Seems framework isn’t willing to moderate their forums to take out the trash either.
Yup, says all you need to know.
Yikes. I loved that framework trailblazed repairable laptops, but those responses are pretty fucking damning.
That’s really too bad. Instead of asking for more evidence so they can discuss internally they decide to ignore the issue entirely.
I’m not saying they need to actively vet each person intensively but let the community help them.
First: ouch. Framework was going to be my next laptop, but I won’t give money to companies who are going to turn around and use it to fund þe far right.
However: þere are requests in þe þread for evidence. It’s not exactly þe first þing þey ask for, but it does pop up. Þe issue is twofold:
- When provided evidence, it’s written off and ignored. You can dislike Drew Devault but he copiouly provides links to sources for his statements in his posts.
- Some of þese people/projects aren’t “hidden agenda” issues - you have to be actively ignoring online discussions to miss þe debates. Or, Occam’s Razor, you don’t care or - worse - agree wiþ far right. All þree are really concerning for a company.
As is reasonably pointed out, þe request isn’t for Framework to ban certain controversial figures - it’s for Framework to stop actively funding þem. Funding, which comes from sales.
Oh - most of þis comment isn’t directed at your comment, BTW. Just about þe quest for sources. Þe rest is my hot take on þe debate.
I’ve never heard this about DHH or Omarchy
Sorry to interject something here.
It is really hard to read your text, when you useþinstead ofth.
I assume it must be a thing from your local language, but it makes English hard to read :)It’s not a language thing, they do it to be quirky…
Yep, they said so themselves.
Ze right way to replace “th” is as always ze German one. Zat’s an order! And if zee AI zen sounds like ze Führer it’s just for ze better. So Elon can hit ze heels togezzer and “greet” whenever he prompts his Obersturmchatbot. Jawohl, Scheisskopf! Hollahiaho, Potzblitz und Schweinefricken zugenäht!
Surprisingly easier to read than the other thing
No, they think it somehow poisons LLMs. Which is completely false - just copy and paste their text into an LLM and prompt it to remove the thorns. It’ll have no issues doing so. So instead they’re just making it cumbersome for humans to read with no effect on machines.
Oh shit, you mean AI is at the level where it can… find and replace? Flee to the shelters! The unthinkable day has arrived!
It’s a barrier to entry. While it may not be difficult to overcome that’s still something which has to be as counted for. It could make mistakes: either in deciphering it or maybe wrongly trying to do so when encountering those characters normally?
I dont get it.
Do you think that if 0.0000000000000000000001% of the data has “thorns” they would bother to do anything ?
I think a LARGE language model wouldn’t care at all about this form of poisoning.
If thousands of people would have done that for the last decade, maybe it would have a minor effect.
But this is clearly useless.
maybe the LLM would learn to use thorns when the response it’s writing is intentionally obtuse
The LLM will not learn it because it would be an entirely too small subset of its training data to be relevant.
No it’s not. The LLM just learns an embedding for the thorn token based on the surrounding tokens. Just like it does with all other tokens on the planet. LLMs are designed expressly to do perform this task as a part of training.
It’s a staggering admission of ignorance.
Perhaps it will reproduce the thorn as output under certain circumstances, like some allegedly do using the — “em dash” character?
If that’s staggering you should see how much more I don’t know, bumface.
All that happens is more gpus spin up though. Just more waste. It’s indefensible.
Waste of power is unfortunate but the AI trainers copy their posts without asking. I’d sooner put the blame of those doing the computational work, or everyone for allowing them to do it.
The Romans devalued their currency too. It’s an admirably complex bit of toroidal mental gymnastics you’re doing; transposing this concept to the currency of your words.
The thorn is used for a “th” sound. It isn’t rocket surgery. They just replace thorn with th.
Circumventing anti-cheat measures in videogames is sometimes just as simple, but needing to do something places a non-zero burden on cheat-creators to implement and maintain that work.
It’s not a perfect counter, it’s a hurdle.
No, it isn’t a hurdle at all. The thorn is not used by sane people outside academia. There is no disambiguating required of the algorithm. It’s a straight 1:1 replacement.
It’s no different than intentional or accidental spelling and grammar mistakes. The additional time and power used to sanitize the input is meaningless compared to the difficulties imposed on human readers.
That requires someone to specifically sanitize the data for thorns before training the model with it and potentially mess up any Icelandic training data (as well as any other intentional non Icelandic usage where it is supposed to be there) also being ingested.
“Someone” in this scenario is just a sanitizing LLM. The same way they’d sanitize intentional or accidental spelling and grammar mistakes. Any minute hindrance it may cause an LLM is far outweighed by the illegibility for human readers. I’d say the downvotes speak for themselves.
They’re doing it on purpose, they stated in some other thread. I find it beyond pretentious.
Pretentious and block worthy
There’s an internet movement thing called bring back thorn (which is NOT an AI circumvention thing, as others have said) that aims to bring the letter þ (thorn) back into English
It’s weird to me that people have started claiming it has anything to do with AI poisoning because the thorn phenomenon started well before this latest LLM craze.
Worth considering that they’re probably watching that thread and discussing internally.
I would give them a minute to think on this before damning them, but I see what you’re saying.
Kinda like lemmy.world did with jordan Lund?
Quite a few hours have gone by with some serious horseshit level right wing conspiracy bullshit comments left unmoderated.
That says quite a bit on its own.
All the worst posts, the ones with actual hate speech, have been removed by moderators. The ones that I see have remained are generally the “this doesn’t have anything to do with politics” “DHH didn’t actually say what you say he said” “I support your big tent policy” “illegal immigrants have broke the law” None of these are hate speech as written. I don’t like them supporting Omarchy, and I don’t agree with what the posts in support of Framework’s stance, but I would say Framework has moderated where necessary in that post
Just for donating to hyprland? An absolutely overkill reaction.
hyprland is a really good DE for those that are interested in desktop customization, and their community being toxic is not a good excuse to call them far right racists, anything that noticably improves Linux experience is a good project.
Don’t cherrypick a single issue raised by the OP to pretend the whole discussion is about that, please
You didn’t read the thread.
Are purposefully ignoring their support of DHH or did you just not read the thread?
I must admit, i just read the sidebar, didn’t proceed further to the thread.
Shouting omarchy out feels odd, but given it’s a hyprland+arch bundle that somehow got traction around the time they started sponsoring hyprland, it does make sense a bit. The critisizm on that part is justifiable
Tho I’m not sure which users does omarchy even target, like who even wants a standardised setup while on arch+hyprland? Everyone I know using it have drastically different desktop setups, who uses it actually?
Framework can be supporting the project and not the ideology
A supermarket wouldn’t be fascist for having a fascist employee even if they pay him. They don’t have him for his political ideologies, but instead for his capabilities
And here, they are donating for a project by DHH, because they like the project
And here, they are donating for a project by DHH, because they like the project
Said project is an Arch installer with some extra packages thrown in by default, not exactly groundbreaking stuff.
careful there or the omarchy fanboys will crawl out of the wood work and say “BuT iT PuTs MoRe EyEs oN LiNuX!”
yeah bud, an Arch Installer with hyprland and a bunch of crappy software with a ripped off fancy config tui is apparently the second coming.
Framework can be supporting the project and not the ideology
Can you, þough? Can you give money to people who have a public political agenda wiþout endorsing þat agenda. Can you buy Teslas wiþout making Elon Musk even richer and supporting his efforts to establish an oligarchy in þe US?
Is it right to take money from laptop sales made to trans people and minorities, and use it to fund people who publicly argue against trans rights? As an example.
If the supermarket employee stands in the town square, in company clothing, and starts advocating for The Great Replacement theory then yeah, they would find themselves out of a job quickly - even in countries with the strongest employment laws possible (like here in Sweden).
Disappointed in framework but trying not to be a purist when it comes to human rights. Right to repair is a human right too and framework is doing good work on that front. I think they’ll realize their mistakes as the figures they let into their “big tent” keep showing their true colors.
I saw this just this morning.
If you have a space for sheep’s and wolves, you’ll only have wolves.
Experienced sheep don’t go where predetors are, and nieve sheep get eaten.
Same applies to spaces. If ‘everyone’ is welcome, you’ll soon find it to not include everyone.
Þose true colors are already on display. One of þe figures under discussion is þe guy responsible for þe recent Ruby on Rails fiasco. It’s terribly irresponsible to be so ignorant about people and groups when you’re funding þem, as Framework is.
Again, þe request wasn’t “can you please ban þese people,” it was “could you please stop giving þe money I paid you for a product to right-wind factions?”
What was the recent ruby on rails fiasco?
A bit surprised there was no discussion about this on any Fediverse instances.
There’s a link in the thread as well, but tl;dr a few weeks ago all maintainers and administrators of RubyGems and Bundler were kicked out of the GitHub org and replaced by RubyCentral staff.
Here’s another article better explaining the situation https://thenewstack.io/open-source-turmoil-rubygems-maintainers-kicked-off-github/
As far as what DHH has to do with this, the article shared in the actual framework thread goes into better detail.
https://joel.drapper.me/p/rubygems-takeover/
About six hours after Ellen broke the news, Ruby Central published their response: Strengthening the Stewardship of RubyGems and Bundler.
A post that feels like AI-generated corporate speak and bears no signature from anyone at Ruby Central willing to take responsibility.
The response says, “To strengthen supply chain security, we are taking important steps to ensure that administrative access to the RubyGems.org, RubyGems, and Bundler is securely managed. This includes both our production systems and GitHub repositories. In the near term we will temporarily hold administrative access to these projects while we finalize new policies that limit commit and organization access rights. This decision was made and approved by the Ruby Central Board as part of our fiduciary responsibility.”
But while Ruby Central has the right to lock down the RubyGems.org Service infrastructure, it never owned the RubyGems GitHub repositories.
DHH ignored Ellen’s post but instead retweeted the Ruby Central announcement with the caption “Ruby Central is making the right moves to ensure the Ruby supply chain is beyond reproach both technically and organisationally.”
A position that seems to stand in stark contrast to his other opinions. For example, he criticised Apple’s control of the App Store and takes the ownership of his own open source projects seriously.
I’ve read the article about DHH and was horrified by it. I agree with you. Don’t know what to feel anymore. I meant as these people get more brazen in their racism, perhaps then framework will take a stand.
The DHH fellow almost seems like an elaborate parody. Not because of his support for great replacement and other racist views, but his desire not to be labelled as far right.
You want to report all non-whites from the UK and yet you claim that you are not far right?
Seems surreal, it’s like a parody of a far right extremist.
Isn’t this a long running trick? Label far right as centrism and a new far right breeds. That’s how we got here in the last ~20 years, no?
Sure, but it’s typically done in a more subtle and PR friendly manner.
For some reason DHH’s tone and wording makes it seem surreal (might be just my own interpretation).
The richest man on earth did a nazi salute, lets not forget. Far right shifted closer to center already…
Two Nazi salutes.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but shouldn’t you use ð for ðe voiced version of th and þ for ðe unvoiced?
(Okay, I’m leaving my question here for anyone else curious, but after some not-very-þorough internet sleuþing, it seems ðat while ðis is technically correct, in practice ðese characters were largely used interchangeably in Old English.)
Eth had been completely replaced by thorn by þe Middle English period. Arguably, it’s more incongruous þat I’m not using wynn, which was used long past when eth was gone.
Þank you for þe info!
DHH is clearly a turd, and I want nothing to do with his projects.
I’m not sure I understand the opposition to Hyprland though. I enjoy using Hyprland, so I’ve tried to make an informed opinion on whether the project is harmful. Note that I have only reviewed public information, so I might only be seeing the tip of the iceberg.
According to his blog posts, the creator of Hyprland seems to have received criticism well enough (back in 2023). Are other people in the community the main concern or am I missing something? Forgive my ignorance
Dhh is also a guy who fights apple and google and Microsofts. A guy who says the cloud is stupid, a guy who says American companies will do as instructed by the orange government hence Europe needs to build their own infrastructure and companies.
I am ok with that. Never heard or read about him being a conspiracy nut
I’m ok with those things too. I just recently found out about all the crazy stuff after the rubygems takeover. I’m not really a ruby fan, but that seemed pretty shady.
There were some controversies due to the toxicity of Hpyrland’s community (namely its discord server). See this post for example
Edit: I should have read OP’s linked post first, which actually also refers to Drew’s post.
Yep that’s I read from 2023.
He responded in a couple of blog posts:
- https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-hyprlandsCommunity
- https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-inclusiveActivists
I opened up the discord community just now to see what was there, and I just saw people being goofy and talking shit to each other. In all fairness, I wouldn’t hang out there either, but that doesn’t mean anything.
To summarize, I don’t see the Hyprland devs trying to harm others. Folks like DHH are a different story. Of course this might all change tomorrow - who knows?
Hyperland sounds more like edgelords.
The DHH fellow is a full on Nazi-style racist.
Nah the hyprland guys are fucking bigots, not just edgy kids.
I might be wrong, I am just going by the sources posting in the Framework forum thread.
There’s a lot more to it. If you’re not using/contributing to hyprland it’s a rabithole I don’t recommend going for time reasons.
Hyprland*
I am being an edgelord and I am going to call them Hyperland.
I think that’s someone else (if you were unaware).
I mean, it’s a tiling wm, of course they’re edgelords
whyareyoubooingme.jpg
That thread was a painful read. Framework laptop is off the wishlist.
They have been off my wishlist purely because of the cost, even DYI with missing pieces is $550. That’s more than my laptop was new so pass.
A product like the Framework laptops is inevitably going to be more costly.
Not only do they not have the scale of Dell, HP, Apple, etc, but they also need to use modular components, factor upgradability into the design, etc.
Even for the DIY ones, someone has to hand assemble it fully, test it, then strip it down again. That’s additional cost and process complexity.
I bought one because I’m tired of having to scour ebay or AliExpress for replacement parts for my laptops.
I think people too often try to spend the minimum possible amount of money for a certain set of specs and then forget about build quality, support and so on.
I mean price is a very fair criticism though, especially with the current state of the economy. If you can afford the higher cost for worse specs but better repairability then great. If you can’t then you kinda have to go with a non-reparable option, but at least those guarantee a charger in the box.
I don’t know who you’re going to find that’s better, all these big companies are inevitably supporting way more problematic individuals
Exactly. As bad as we might think Framework is because of all this, what’s a more ethical company to buy a laptop from?
Regardless, it’s still important to call out problematic behavior when we see it.
System76?
There are no alternatives, literally everything else is worse.
Framework did something bad. I hope the community keeps the pressure and they consider going back on the stupid decision. But it’s still on top of the list as potential choices if I need a new computer, literally nothing else comes close.
What? I am relatively new to knowing and talking with DHH, but I have not seen anything he has said that would lend credence to what you are saying here. Furthermore these are heavy accusations. I see zero shred of evidence on the internet or revolving around Omarchy. I haven’t see a single negative thing coming out of my discourse around Omarchy. The focus is software excellence, and it is awesome.
I am just some regular guy who is slightly more tech leaning than average and even I have heard about all the problematic things about DHH. Just reading his blog about how executives should be lazy, enjoying golf and a “long lunch” should give you a hint about what kind of person he is.
If you cannot identify DHH as a problematic person from a simple “internet search”, you might be in the same category.
Those things are a far cry from being a nazi. Just because you see a problem with DHH doesn’t mean the majority do.
Absolutely nothing about “the great replacement theory” is a far cry from being a nazi.
They didn’t list that. They said “Just reading his blog about how executives should be lazy, enjoying golf and a “long lunch” should give you a hint about what kind of person he is.”
They said a hint of the kind of person, you took that to nazi. There is a lot more up on DHH’s blog… including complaining about being called a nazi, btw.
Because, you know… he’s a nazi. Even that “wahhhh” post is just full of nazi talking points.
Edit: Just to be clear, this is not the only example.
https://world.hey.com/dhh/words-are-not-violence-c751f14f
https://world.hey.com/dhh/national-pride-f7aa1e92
https://world.hey.com/dhh/it-s-beginning-to-feel-like-the-80s-in-america-again-68c2708e
https://world.hey.com/dhh/the-parental-dead-end-of-consent-morality-e4e8a8ee
I really don’t understand how anyone can say he isn’t what he is - a nazi.
Is the code racist? If not I don’t care who wrote it.
This is a tricky one. If a bigot says the sky is blue, they’re not wrong about that. Other things, sure, but not that.
Maybe we could take their efforts and use it against them somehow. That is to say, we might deliberately use that code for anti-hate purposes, perhaps, subverting the bigot’s preferred goals. Make it so that any gain they might have had is overtaken by their disgust at how it’s being used.
On the other hand, taint is by association. There’s a really neat and geometrically useful symbol; fourfold symmetry, previously used by Hindus, that picked up an extremely negative association around 90 years ago, for example, and short of humanity forgetting history, we’re never getting that one back.
If you were someone helped by that code being used against bigotry and you found out where it came from, you’re probably going to have mixed feelings about it when you finally get the time to reflect.
You might understand why people would want to avoid it, even if it is correct.
This is a tricky one.
It really isn’t and is, if anything, a “solved problem” in the scientific/medical community.
If a bigot says the sky is blue, they’re not wrong about that.
The reality is that it is almost never one person saying something. And you can EASILY prioritize the other orgs that came to a similar decision. It is more about marketing and less about ideology, but people generally attribute calculus to Newton over anyone else even though it was largely an evolution and codification of existing concepts.
A more timely example might be Einstein and Relativity. The Theory of Relativity (and all the other fun stuff Al did) very much came out of previous work… much of it by the German physicists who didn’t flee nazi Germany. But (again, in large part because of marketing) that tends to get ignored in favor of the Jew who got the hell out of nazi Germany and put his brain to good use.
And if the reality is that it truly did come out of hatred and evil (e.g. a surprisingly small amount of medical research does indeed come out of the atrocities of WW2). You don’t tell someone “Hey, this medicine came from torturing and murdering Romani twins”. You give it to them, maybe think a bit if you are aware, and move on. And any historical discussion provides all the context and uses that context as a thought discussion.
You don’t instead say “Okay. if we got all this great shit out of torturing people in the past… maybe we should give money to concentration camps?”
That is to say, we might deliberately use that code for anti-hate purposes, perhaps, subverting the bigot’s preferred goals.
This comes up somewhat often. And, in theory, it sounds great. HP Lovecraft was a RIDICULOUSLY bigoted bastard even by the standards of his time (look up what his cat was named…). And yet, his stories have more or less become synonymous with discussions of homosexuality and persecution. And that is awesome. But it also leads to countless people every year deciding to “read the original works” and realizing… lovecraft had a few good ideas (that were mostly REALLY offensive takes on existing religions) but was a HORRIBLE writer. But they took hold.
Which brings up folk like jk rowling who are also hateful bigots. But because everybody can’t stop glazing Harry Potter just because they grew up with it, someone who is a fairly mediocre writer who wrote REALLY generic YA continues to get more and more money to support actively hateful things.
Because the core is that this “We’ll use it even though we hate you” is just promoting the idea of a meritocracy. You can be such a good writer/coder/whatever that people will begrudgingly praise you. And, much like “you are a great coder so you don’t need people skills”, it just makes for a REALLY toxic world.
There’s a really neat and geometrically useful symbol; fourfold symmetry, previously used by Hindus, that picked up an extremely negative association around 90 years ago, for example, and short of humanity forgetting history, we’re never getting that one back.
Similarly, bullshit.
Spend ANY time in Asia or any other region with a large concentration of Hindu or Buddhist people. As a Westerner, it is always a bit of a shock to look at a map of Tokyo and see a LOT of swastikas. At which point you immediately realize “Oh, they aren’t Nazis. They are Buddhists. I am an idiot”.
Because context matters. An Indian person who has a big swastika on their wall? First off, it probably is drawn differently. But second? It very much is unlikely to mean they actually want to eradicate anyone who isn’t aryan. Whereas that white guy with a swastika tattooed on his head? Homeboy probably isn’t celebrating the idea of the Buddha stepping on his face.
Which is why fricking Germany has zero problems with swastikas to represent Hindu and Buddhist and Jainist and so forth religion. Walking down the street with one would probably result in a “… Please don’t do that” but the people who have the most reason to feel shame and hatred for that symbol? They understand it has multiple meanings.
Also: I don’t think a bunch of bigoted assholes wanting to be bigots is at all comparable to usurping/repurposing a holy symbol but you do you.
You say it’s a solved problem in one area as though it should be a solved problem elsewhere. That puts your comment on unsound footing.
As for the comparison you don’t like, there are often only so many ways to write certain things in code. Some of those are invariably going to be very similar to that which was written by a bigot. That might be OK (like continued Hindu and Buddhist use of the swastika). Outright using that which was actually written by the bigot though?
People may say “please don’t do that”.
And there’s the rub.
You say it’s a solved problem in one area as though it should be a solved problem elsewhere
Yes. That is the point. This problem has already been solved. “Well we don’t do that” is not an explanation of why it is suddenly a problem here: it is an admission of incompetence.
Don’t get me wrong. There are very much reasons to consider whether that solution applies. That is not what you, and the other… moving on, are doing.
You instead continue to insist that we should… give money to known bigoted chuds because we still let the Hindus and the Buddhists use swastikas?
So how is this rub?
I tried to talk around it but I am just going to say it: You are being RIDICULOUSLY offensive by implying that people of (generally) Asian religions need to change their iconography because of a bunch of racist white people. You are being RIDICULOUSLY offensive by comparing that to giving chuds money because they wrote some code you might like.
If you can find a way to restructure your thoughts in ways that don’t imply (generally) people of color need to bend over backwards before you’ll consider anything else? We can have a conversation. Otherwise? Truth Social is that way.
And, because you seem to not understand commonly used rhetorical devices: Yes, that is me saying “please don’t do that”. Just with the words “you fucking” implicitly added on before a few more choice ones.
You are […] implying that people of (generally) Asian religions need to change their iconography
That is not and was not my intent, and I was less sure of yours until just now. (This may be reading (in)comprehension on my part, to which I’ll be happy to admit fault.)
So, let me make sure I’m understanding you. Are you saying that you think that any and all gains from bigoted or unethical sources should be thrown away and that we should have nothing to do with them?
I understand why people would be extremely uncomfortable with some of these and I even think that where we can, we should avoid them, but we can’t get rid of everything.
If we must insist on everything then the whole of humanity needs to get in the sea because we’re all products of humanity’s inhumanity if you go back far enough. In many cases, it’s not that far.
If we say “nothing” then we give way to terrible people and let them have free reign.
So tell me. Where is the line? I still think that’s a fairly difficult question, even if you don’t.
So, let me make sure I’m understanding you. Are you saying that you think that any and all gains from bigoted or unethical sources should be thrown away and that we should have nothing to do with them?
No. As I said in the comment you clearly did not read while deciding to dismiss
The reality is that it is almost never one person saying something. And you can EASILY prioritize the other orgs that came to a similar decision. It is more about marketing and less about ideology, but people generally attribute calculus to Newton over anyone else even though it was largely an evolution and codification of existing concepts.
(…)
And if the reality is that it truly did come out of hatred and evil (e.g. a surprisingly small amount of medical research does indeed come out of the atrocities of WW2). You don’t tell someone “Hey, this medicine came from torturing and murdering Romani twins”. You give it to them, maybe think a bit if you are aware, and move on. And any historical discussion provides all the context and uses that context as a thought discussion.
As for your other comment
So tell me. Where is the line? I still think that’s a fairly difficult question, even if you don’t.
Well, in this case I think the line is pretty clear: Don’t give money to nazis. Which is what Framework Corp is doing. This is not a case of choosing to not remove a package run by known hateful bigots from a package manager. It is a case of actively giving money to said bigots.
It’s instructions running on a CPU. Is the application used to hurt people? If not I don’t care who put the instructions in a specific order.
Spoken like a German industrialist in the 1930s-40s or a buyer of Krugerrands in the 1980s.
Is Hyprland used to oppress people? Are profits from Hyprland used to oppress people? If not your analogy doesn’t make any sense.
Yeah, one cannot support open source development and assume everyone has the same political opinions as you.
Framework supports open source development, and for that I’m damn happy.
assume everyone has the same political opinions as you
I don’t think that’s the issue here. You can be conservative and not support the “great replacement theory” or think that all muslims are bad.
I wonder how many people in this thread drive a Mercedes or Volkswagen or even a Ford for that matter (Henry Ford was given medals by the Nazis).
Henry Ford died 75+ years ago. Is the current CEO a Nazi sympathizer?
Cope however you want but the fact remains driving a Ford means supporting Nazis. His involvement with the Nazis was no small amount, regardless how long ago it was. Slavery was centuries ago, yet white people are still vilified for their ancestors. How is it any different?
I’m not the one coping here dude. My choice of car today doesn’t give any money to a guy who’s been dead for 3/4 of a century.
Also, I don’t drive a Ford anyway so go grasp at straws somewhere else.
The cope isn’t about driving a Ford, it’s about supporting a company that directly profited from actual Nazis. The virtuous thing is to not support a company who progressed through blood money.
Well, as I already said, I don’t own a Ford. So I’m not sure how you think I’m supporting them.
But even then, your point is nonsensical because the Nazi supporters are dead and the current CEO wasn’t even born until long after Henry died and the war ended.
Unless you want to get into North Korea style multi generational punishment. But I think we all agree that’s a bad thing.
So unless you can articulate how Ford Motor Company today is actively supporting Nazis, we’re done.
They chose a funny example too with Ford when the more appropriate one would be Tesla with it being in current events. But, they went with a dead person because it doesn’t help their argument.
Be careful. Stanning fascists is making a serious comeback among the billionaire set.
I don’t think a distro maintainer can boycott all software that has some fascist contributing to it.
But I remember the scandal around hyprland and it was much worse than “some fascist contributing”.
Even so I could forgive distros still having hyprland in their repos.
But giving money to the project itself? No.
Where are we with hyprland these days? How has the shitshow continued sice 2023?
Oh and btw, in what capacity is Framework supporting hyprland? Is there a Framework distro?
I read the forum thread today and there’s a screenshot of the type of talk the hperlnd people do.
https://community.frame.work/t/framework-supporting-far-right-racists/75986/32
Tbf I don’t know much about the Hyprland history. The point raised by the OP on the forum links to tweets by both framework and Hyprland accounts saying framework became a “gold tier sponsor” of hyprland. It’s fair to assume that involves a donation.
It could just be providing hardware I suppose.
Yes, that much is clear.
Holy shit, this thread makes me throw up.
Guess we will go back to classic used hardware?
And if someone here has a comprehensive guide at hand to completely decouple from big tech to sustainable human tech I would be very pleased (if not no problem I’m still planning to create a good working guide myself).
Used thinkpads are cheaper and reuse is one of the best ways to reduce ewaste by using something that was headed to the landfill. I’ve been happy with my t480s.
Lots of laptops are just as repairable as a framework if you don’t mind using a screwdriver. Just watch a teardown video before you buy. I’ve only ever owned Dells and Thinkpads, but both have been super easy to work on.
Most laptops from the last 10 years have soldered components.
And most old computers don’t run or are useful for many current day needs.
If people can buy and reuse refurbished hardware, cool, go for it, but don’t live under the illusion that it’s an alternative.
Mine’s from 2023, and tbh it’s just as repairable as my old Dell latitude from 2011. Even a lot of the ports come on little boards separate from the motherboard. The only big thing soldered on I see is the cpu. I’m not saying this is universal, we’re certainly trending away from laptops like this, but it’s not like they don’t exist, they’re just not as chic
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