• Scipitie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    2 months ago

    So much comments on just the title … Could come from anthropic directly.

    There is literally zero basis on the made claim in the article, just arbitrage calculations over supposed token consumptions under non stable test sets.

    I have no idea if/how much these stupid fuckers spend to get more customers - and this “article” wasted a lot of time showing that they don’t know either.

    (Stupid is cut out because I don’t think they they’re stupid. Which makes it way worse in my book)

      • Bluescluestoothpaste@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        Exactly, these companies will keep leveraging more and more because they know the govt will step in and print whatever number of trillions of dollars needed to fix the accounting. Then they’ll tell us “core” inflation is only 2.8%.

  • OberonSwanson@sh.itjust.works
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    2 months ago

    Of course it is, it’s essentially a scam. They just need enough humans to keep investing until they check out and run with a bailout.

    • DeckPacker@piefed.social
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      2 months ago

      Funny thing is, the US government doesn’t even have nearly enough money to bail all these mfa out. So we are heading into uncharted territory here

      • Arghblarg@lemmy.ca
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        2 months ago

        And that’s why they’re trying underhanded tactics to inflate earnings and IPO directly into the index funds, so every American’s 401K will legally have to rebalance and invest in them. They’re racing to fleece retirement funds before the bubble bursts.

        Not financial advice, of course :p but people should really consider getting their stuff out and into self-directed funds or whatever it is US people do to not depend on auto-allocated funds.

      • OberonSwanson@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        Of course they don’t, that’s why they’re building bunkers. Thinking it’ll slow us down, as we’ll open their bunkers like cans of tuna. A bunker only works for so long, then the survivors start hunting for them like delicious shipwrecks.

      • T156@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        Although, most people aren’t talking about Alphafold when they’re talking about AI. They’re usually specifically referring to the generative transformer models that are currently all the rage.

        I doubt anyone would care too much about a linear regression model, or multi-layer peceptron , for example.

      • Wildmimic@anarchist.nexus
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        2 months ago

        Both Uber and Spotify (and AWS too) had economics of scale going for them - the more users they have, the more the infrastructure could be leveraged. This does NOT work for LLMs. More users means using more compute, more advanced tasks (like coding) uses exponential amounts of compute. A single user running a complex task can make 8 Blackwell GPUs run full tilt, and you don’t even have any guarantee that the output will be useable.

        There are a few narrow areas where LLMs might be successful, like scanning for security vulnerabilities or searching large amounts of documents. The massive amount of money invested will never be recouped with these usage scenarios.

      • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
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        2 months ago

        solving something like the Erdős unit distance conjecture

        Tell me you listen to media news cycle without understanding what that actually mean without telling me that.

        That’s not exactly what happened, isn’t it.

        Not to bring up what’s also been accomplished in cyber security

        Multiple new vectors of attacks, automation of attack pipelines…

    • Yliaster@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      I don’t get why companies get to legally bailout like this. Why do people have to suffer for their bullshit? Enslave the CEOs if you have to make things right, leave the people out of it.

      • Shellofbiomatter@lemmus.org
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        2 months ago

        That’s simple, because the people making laws and overseeing the adherence to those laws are great buddies with those same CEOs.

        So, corruption.

        Though i do agree with you, there is no such thing as too big to fail. Government shouldn’t have any handouts to corporations.

        • Yliaster@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          These levels of corruption are frustrating; money shouldn’t decide the law.

          No handouts to corporations, indeed. Make them pay.

  • 🍉 DrRedOctopus 🐙🍉@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    reminder than during 2019 there were streaming services popping left and right, all showing tremendous growth because they started from zero, and articles were about how bad Netflix was doing due to having practically no growth compared with the competition (they already had a massive subscriber base). Twist? Netflix was the only streaming service that was actually making a profit, the rest were a massive loss but big growth.

    Needless to say most of those streaming services died; who remembers DC streaming service, or Yahoo’s? While Netflix is basically as stong as ever, despite the prevalent enshitification happening through the whole industry.

    Point of the story? shareholders don’t care about stable profitable business, only cancerous growth. AI is like that, zero profits, ton of cost, but as long as they show growth the shareholders are happy, regardless of how cooked the books are.

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      who remembers DC streaming service, or Yahoo’s?

      Quibi will always have a place in my heart. Or, at least, my golden arm

      • 🍉 DrRedOctopus 🐙🍉@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        late to streaming, but practically the first subscription based system to watch movies/tv online.

        First years of Netflix were the best, the product began degrading quite early on. but that was mostly companies realizing that instead of licensing their content on Netflix, they can make their own platforms.

        • Corkyskog@sh.itjust.works
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          2 months ago

          I think people forget that there is also the problem of being “too early” where people or the technology isn’t ready yet. Netflix timed their entry perfectly.

          There are so many defunct websites or businesses that no one has ever heard of that were precursors to modern day services we view as conveniences.

      • krashmo@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        Late to streaming? Netflix was the first big time streaming service that I ever heard of. The main reason their streaming service was able to take off like it did is that nobody else of significance thought that streaming was worth pursuing. What other companies were offering streaming services at anything approaching scale before Netflix?

        • thisbenzingring@lemmy.today
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          2 months ago

          YouTube and Hulu were basically all starting about the same time. But RealPlayer was the first big one.

          Netflix just had the layout that everyone uses now. The Cable networks had streaming services, just not on demand. YouTube and Hulu also pioneered the on demand layout. YouTube focused on personal experiences so maybe that’s why you’re forgetting them

          • jj4211@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            YouTube started in 2005, but was not really a “streaming service”, it hosted random internet posted videos. The concept of engaging with the big content rights holders wasn’t remotely in sight back then.

            Hulu came out a year after Netflix started streaming, by about a year. Hulu was inspired by Netflix’s move to have actual traditional media content as a streaming service instead of ad-hoc video uploads like youtube.

            RealPlayer offered technology for websites to provide videos, they themselves I don’t recall being a streaming platform in and of itself.

            Whatever one may say about Netflix, they were right there in the beginning with streaming traditional, professional media content. Yes, video playback over the internet wasn’t new, but that’s a technical detail that enables, but is not the core of the “streaming service” business model.

    • MimicJar@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      2019 Yahoo

      My immediate thought, there is no way Yahoo! Screen survived into 2019.

      I looked it up and Yahoo! Screen (which featured Community season 6) was shutdown in January 2016. But Yahoo! View launched in late 2016 (as a Hulu-like replacement), and that did shutter in mid 2019.

      So Yahoo! was already dead, but it also died for real in 2019.

          • elucubra@sopuli.xyz
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            2 months ago

            Actually, when Yahoo was the search giant, before Google went mainstream, they were pretty damn good at what they did.

            • JohnEdwa@sopuli.xyz
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              2 months ago

              With how shit Google is these days, I kinda wonder if Yahoo could dust out their search engine from two decades back and it would just be… better.

              • Axolotl@feddit.it
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                2 months ago

                Yahoo had it’s own web crawler only between 2004 and 2009, then they made a deal with Microsoft to use Bing indexes, so i highly doubt they even have their old index

  • captain_solanum@sh.itjust.works
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    2 months ago

    looks inside

    But if you use the $100 a month Claude Max plan, and you would use it to the weekly limit by going full ‘agentic coding’ (so almost no human in the loop) you would use an amount of tokens that would cost you more than $1000 at API-pricing.

    If I watch 600 movies every day on my netflix subscription I am using more energy than I pay them for. Obviously everyone is like me. Therefore they are losing money overall.

    Wait, their (netflix) earnings say they made a profit last quarter. But my calculations were waterproof!

    Probably anthropic are not earning money, but they are not spending 10x what people pay them for tokens.

    • mirshafie@europe.pub
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      2 months ago

      I mean it’s not very hard to use up your Claude Max plan, but I find it hard to believe a majority of users do so consistently.

    • potustheplant@feddit.nl
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      2 months ago

      Except that you would need 50 devices to do that and the most expensive Netflix plan only lets you stream up to 4 devices at a time. Considering the average 2 hours per movie, that’s 48 movies per day. That’s without mentioning that you’d need to automate this because you’d be asleep for 8 of those 24 hours.

      The point is, your analogy doesn’t work. There’s no reason why someone would do what you’re describing and it’d also be very hard to do.

      Using up all of your tokens though? Just use agentic coding, set the ““thinking”” to max and you’ll ser how quickly and easily you can burn through them. Share your account and you’ll burn them even faster.

      • captain_solanum@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        You’re right that people can and do max out the expensive plans. Its very difficult to say how often. I just think a majority of anthropics customers are businesses, who often pay per token for easier scaling etc. According to the company, enterprise employees use about $150-$250 per month, (possibly max plans have similar use, which would support your view) but thats in API tokens which they probably have big margins on, so it’s less likely anthropic are burning money on inference. If you want to convince me otherwise, its not enough to say that it can happen, it has to be frequent enough to outweigh the B2B sales. They are however likely losing money overall due to training costs etc.

  • Fizz@lemmy.nz
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    2 months ago

    The author is right and wrong. Its subsidised but not by anthropic. The power users who use their plans to the limit are subsidised by the rest of the users. Im an AI hater but I do think anthropic will be profitable next year. Their revenue growth is insane and looks to just be getting started. Claude code took enterprise by storm and now cowork is out.

  • vermaterc@lemmy.ml
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    2 months ago

    So are we assuming here that LLMs won’t become more efficient over time? GPT-3 has been a frontier model just a few years ago and it’s performance blew everyone’s mind at that time. I can now run equivalent LLM on my personal computer. Why can’t we expect that after a few years Claude Sonnet level of capability won’t be possible to accomplish locally?

    • ag10n@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      What’s the cost of the compute you have to run something locally?

      Majority of people don’t have 32G of vram to run something remotely as capable

        • ag10n@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          Describe greased lightning, because it’s much slower and needs to handle compression for context

          We’re moving in that direction but an M5 is not what the majority of people are running at home

          • greyscale@lemmy.grey.ooo
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            2 months ago

            I dunno man, I’m not a slopjockey so I don’t know the minutiae of the addiction.

            All of our devs appear to have M5s right now. All of those copilot+ laptops have NPUs too.

            • ag10n@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              Your company has bought you the latest and greatest and likely supports commercial token usage too

              You can’t compare LLMs at scale to running it locally; same experience and capabilities

              • greyscale@lemmy.grey.ooo
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                2 months ago

                “Latest and greatest” my fucking sides lmao

                My company gave me some US shitware and I’ve got some local shitware instead.

                If you can’t make that work and are dependent on the teat of the slopgenerators, that’s a skill issue on you, buddy.

      • MrQuallzin@pie.eyeofthestorm.place
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        2 months ago

        I’ve got an old 1060ti in my server. Ollama shares it with just a couple other containers. Electricity here is majority hydro with some natural gas, $0.08/kWh.

        It’s a little slow, but I can comfortably run qwen3:14b. Of course that’s not all done on the GPU, a large part is offloaded to server ram (generally 32GB available so more than enough headroom)

        My server and my gaming PC combined last month came out to $13.32

        • ag10n@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          How does that compare to closed models that Anthropic offers, at the context and scale they offer.

          I run Qwen3.6 27B locally and it’s usable with 16G vram but still not the same as a data centre of Blackwell clusters.

      • blackbeans@lemmy.zip
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        2 months ago

        I remember my computer not being fast enough to even play an MP3 file. Two years later, my computer was capable of running 3D accelerated games, browsing the internet at broadband speeds and playing videos.

        Sometimes technology advances fast. We could be entering such an era as there are major investments taking place and global competitors will rise to the occasion to market these to a broader audience.

        I think it will be entirely possible for consumers to use a decent LLM on their computer in a few years time.

        • ag10n@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          It’s not the 90s anymore. Unless there’s a compression algorithm putting billions of relationships into a manageable size, local AI is highly specific under 8G vram (text-to-speech as an example is under 1G) let alone the context required for keeping a conversation or writing code.

          • blackbeans@lemmy.zip
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            2 months ago

            To be clear, I wasn’t talking about a leap in LLM design. I was talking about a leap in hardware capabilities…

            • KRAW@linux.community
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              2 months ago

              Improved hardware capabilities used to come very quickly (see Moore’s Law and Dennard Scaling). However that trend is basically over, so getting higher performance hardware takes a lot of effort to make hardware specialized for certain tasks. That’s why you see there inference accelerators like Groq, SambaNova, Cerebrus, etc. However this is hardware that still is gonna go into data centers. Something innovative has to happen on the AI side for commercial-grade models to be runnable on consumer hardware.

            • ag10n@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              Which are increasingly out of reach for a normal person. Phones let alone PC hardware have increased exponentially in recent history

          • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
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            2 months ago

            If text-to-speech is what Youtube uses to autogenerate the subtitles, it is worthless for anything that uses slightly richer vocabulary.

            • pirat@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              No. Autogenerated subtitles would be speech-to-text, rather than text-to-speech.

    • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      Why can’t we expect that after a few years Claude Sonnet level of capability won’t be possible to accomplish locally?

      Because when you’re old enough to remember what AIM chat it’s could do 25 years ago, it stops being impressive what today’s chatbots can do…

      It’s seems “new” because everyone hated it and it was just a novelty back then.

      But if you read up on them, they did 90% of what modern ones do. And if they had access to today’s computing, the only explanation for why they still suck so much, is that no one has ever wanted them.

      The oligarchs just decided it didn’t matter

      • unpossum@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        Because when you’re old enough to remember what AIM chat it’s could do 25 years ago, it stops being impressive what today’s chatbots can do…

        C’mon, that’s just silly.

    • mabeledo@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      They could, but what’s the plan here, exactly? That all these for profit companies who are currently publishing models for free, like Qwen, will continue to do so in the future?

      • vermaterc@lemmy.ml
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        2 months ago

        Why not? Why Microsoft develops it’s .NET ecosystem? Why Google develops Go/Dart? It costs them lots of money and they give it for free.

        The answer is: they don’t earn money on it directly, but these tools are a way to tie programmers to their cloud services. If you use .NET you’ll probably end up on Azure. If Go - probably you’ll use GCP.

        So I suspect the same will be with LLMs. At some point they will say: “hey, you can use this LLM however you want, but as you are already using it, then you may want to know our platform is optimized for it”

      • Jakeroxs@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        A large majority definitely hate it to the point of having blinders on for sure.

        On one side you have corpo hype/lies, and the other is LLM is slop garbage and terrible for anything, also developers wrote perfect code before LLMs and now everything that breaks is AI slop caused.

    • greyscale@lemmy.grey.ooo
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      2 months ago

      It already happened, small language models are busy dragging their nutsack on frontier models, running on a macbook and costing nothing

      Where’s the fucking product, Sam?

    • k0e3@lemmy.ca
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      2 months ago

      It just means they lose more money per paying user, I guess.

    • Joelk111@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      I think they might’ve broken the laws of math there, as they’re certainly still spending a non-zero amount.

  • AdolfSchmitler@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    Trust me bro we’re so close to profitability bro, just need this IPO to secure funding one last time bro then we’ll be profitable bro I swear.

  • mfed1122@discuss.tchncs.de
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    2 months ago

    I mean, this is no different than Walmart making prices low until other businesses die out and then raising them.

    It is no different than police shoving all the homeless people and drug addicts into one area of town to crash the property prices, and then evicting them once developers buy everything for cheap.

    They’re purposely operating at a loss in the expectation that they can get ingrained into a ton of workflows, and then gouge everyone absolutely to death while also worsening the quality of the service to make it cheaper for them to run.

    If it weren’t so horrible for the environment, I’d kind of like it, because all the dumbass executives that are signing up for this are going to get exactly what they deserve. You’d think they’d recognize a scheme when they see one.

    • fishy@lemmy.today
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      2 months ago

      My CEO (whom I don’t consider a particularly good or bad CEO) spent a day playing with AI then when asked if he’d sign the company up with the service he literally laughed in their faces and said it’s useless. I was honestly shocked because he’s totally into buzzword and popular crap. Gained a lot of respect for him that day.

      • WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today
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        2 months ago

        An older co-worker seems to ask AI for help during work, we are blue collar. But the Owner of the company does not seem to use it whatsoever.

        I ask Claude on occasion, to see if it will say something smart (it was mostly useless as fuck).

        • Scrollone@feddit.it
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          2 months ago

          Honestly I think Claude it’s good at programming. Way better than ChatGPT.

          But I ain’t going to pay for it.

          • ranzispa@mander.xyz
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            2 months ago

            Published a library doing some very specific data processing. One of the algorithms I implemented was a bit too slow: it would take about a week to process data. I reckon implementation was a little bit sloppy, but I’ve been implementing a bunch of algorithms from research papers and this was pretty much the published implementation.

            I asked Claude to analyse the implementation and check whether it could be improved, half an hour later I got a 26,000% improvement in performance with exactly the same results passing all tests.

            Of course, I could have done that myself. But optimization had to go down to simd level; I doubt I would have been able to do that in less than a week of work.