- cross-posted to:
- memes@lemmygrad.ml
- memes@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- memes@lemmygrad.ml
- memes@lemmy.ml
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/27603744
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Doesn’t really work like that. Russians are not less white than Ukrainians but their ultranationalist ideas are not nearly as supported in the West.
(Not saying Russian ultranationalism is better in any regard)
It does because whiteness is a social construct, Slavs were never considered white by anglos and germans ruling classes, they just get the temporary status when they lick the anglo/german boot and are used as cannon fodder against other Slavs.
I like how Russia itself is now pushing the agenda of being completely different from western countries while culturally being obvisously European. Soviet culture does differ a whole lot from Capitalist culture of the time, but apart from that Russia is not much different from, say, Italy if you compare the two with Japan.
Also it’s always made me laugh how the term “White” has nothing to do with actual whiteness. I remember being in shock when I learned Asians aren’t considered to be white. Like have you seen Japanese or Korean people? They are whiter than many Europeans.
genuine, where do .mls find antipalestenians in lemmy? I have never seen a single one here outside of blatant trolls whenever someone posts a meme like this
Ukraine was invaded, and Palestine was invaded so yeah both has the right to defend themselves
What should a state do when the most prolific invader in the world starts amassing weapons and troops on its border?
That’s what Zionists said about Egypt. I they claimed an imminent threaten from the Egyptian army amassing in the borders
When was Egypt both a part of NATO (the most prolific invader in the world), and also attempting to attack Pissrael on its behalf?
I am going to ask again - what should a state do in such a situation?
Egypt was never attempting to attack Israel, but I am just saying they created a fake excuse, having a base doesn’t mean there will be an eminent attack. I believe in economical and diplomatic preasure until there is a real eminent threat
Egypt was never attempting to attack Israel
And it was never trying to help NATO amass their troops to attack Pissrael.
So, in short, you brought up a completely irrelevant event and keep refusing to answer the original question.having a base doesn’t mean there will be an eminent attack.
Ah yes, the most prolific invader in the world, while being known for attacking after amassing troops for such attacks, is apparently not likely to do so in this particular case is what you are saying.
I believe in economical and diplomatic preasure until there is a real eminent threat
What “economical” and “diplomatic” pressure was Russia able to put on NATO without crippling itself?
Again, what should a state do when the most prolific invader in the world (which Egypt is not) starts amassing weapons and troops on that state’s border?
the most prolific invader in the world is the terrorist state of Israel which also have good relation with Russia. It is relevant to say that both used the same excuse to invade . We all know that both consider the people they occupy fake and claim that the perspective identity of Palestinians and Ukrainians do not existing
the most prolific invader in the world is the terrorist state of Israel
Pissrael is de facto a part of NATO, and is controlled from Washington. So, in addition to Pissrael’s Lebensraum, NATO is responsible for things like the invasions of Iran, Venezuela, Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, and many, many other places (at least some of them - multiple times since 1950).
which also have good relation with Russia.
And yet, Russia does have friendly relations with the Palestinian resistance, and NATO does not.
It is relevant to say that both used the same excuse to invade .
It’s not.
You were asked a question about what a state should do when militarily threatened by the most prolific invader in the world, and, for some reason, brought up Egypt of all polities.We all know that both consider the people they occupy fake and claim that the perspective identity of Palestinians and Ukrainians do not existing
Except, there has been 0 evidence of contemporary Russia conducting a genocide (either in this case, or before), unlike what NATO has been doing.
Again, what should a state do when the most prolific invader in the world (which Egypt is not) starts amassing weapons and troops on that state’s border?
Also, it is quite silly how you excuse Ukraine’s invasions of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.
Send both of them every tank in existence.
It gets messier when you remember that the current government of Ukraine is an ally of the Zionist entity and is providing air defense expertise to the perpetrators of the Gaza genocide, as well as participating in America’s aggression towards Iran. So while I understand the instinct, the unfortunate blunt reality is that these two sides are diametrically opposed.
I’m not gonna get into this with a tankie
Make like June 4, 1989 and never happen
It’s that winning combination of perfectly ignorant and perfectly smug about it that makes you people so odious. Enjoy being on the Nazi side of World War 3 I suppose. Just don’t say you weren’t warned, because you’re being warned right now.
Blah blah blah
Free Tibet.
Already did
Always interesting how Tankies treat Tibet like how Americans treat Natives
We taught them how to read! That justifies it all! We went back on promises and treats and it’s their fault!! THEY DESERVED TO BE RE EDUCATED BY US
The re-education: “So yeah, it was actually bad of the theocracy to enslave you in literal chains, rape, torture and mutilate you for fun. The poverty and abuse you experienced was not a divine punishment for your sins in past lives like the monks told you, it was inflicted on you by a class-based system of exploitation. You have value in this life comrade, not just the next. Here are some shoes.”
We went back on promises and treats and it’s their fault!!
Genuinely baffled by what you could even be talking about here. Are you just free-associating?
Anyway, it’s always interesting how dronies talk about feudal Tibet the way Confederate flag guys talk about the Antebellum South:
It was such a charming traditional society where everything was just better! There was harmony, and everyone got along and everything Just Worked. But then the big commie government came along and tyrannically enforced their woke shit about “rights for serfs” and “girls learning to read”. We treated our nantsam like family, they were happy as slaves!
Do you ever read anything? Because you are obsessed with tankies and Hexbear to the point of being ridiculous and annoying.
All you come across as is pro-fascist and pro-slavery because Tibet suffered genuine slavery before CPC came in.
Just FYI, the Dalai Lama is a pedophile mentioned many times in the Epstein files.
Do they have much of a choice while they’re being invaded?
ahh, yes, what else could they do when they’re being invaded other than committing genocide. poor ukronazis!
OK. So they should let Russia run their tanks through their towns and take over? What’s the take here?
i dunno you could try and fight against the invasion or whatever cia fairy tale you tell yourself to believe you’re not a nazi yet without supporting a literal nazi state? oh yeah, the ukronazis are also fascist bastards so that’s what they want.
So they didn’t invade? You can call them Nazis all you like but let’s live in reality.
Germany was a Nazi state and they got invaded, whats your point
Does that matter to the people the UKR military kills in Iran and helps kill in Palestine?
But no, the Ukranian people have not had a choice in anything since having their government surgically replaced in 2014, or for that matter since having their government illegally dissolved in 1991.
My point with this specific post, as an olive branch to people who may not be familiar with the communist position, is not “Ukraine bad” so much as “This is what eventually happens to every American ‘ally’ no matter what promises have been made to the contrary, and other countries had best take notice”.
Yes American promises are why Russia invaded despite being signatories to a treaty guaranteeing Ukrainian sovereignty.
Why do you think Russia invaded?
Excuses are great, still breaks a treaty.
That sort of thing has a real cost in geopolitics.
Condescension aside, saying that in favor of the faction that kicked this off by breaking both Minsk Agreements is some crazy irony
Anyway why did Russia cross the border, according to you?
Sad thing is that Ukraine wouldn’t have gotten nearly as much support if it looked like they had no chance of winning, or at least resisting.
I think the diplomatic logic is what’s the point in supporting a loser - your support doesn’t change anything and when they lose you’re on the winners shit list. If you support a winner then you may have a beneficial relationship in the future.
Ukraine never had a chance to win militarily, the plan was to strangle Russia by sanctions and it had the chance of succeeding, just the USA intelligence fucked up (not the first not last time, look: Iran) and did not noticed or underestimated Russia efforts to diversify its exports, and global south, mainly China and India, not wanting to be next ones on the US empire chopping block.
Oh this also applies when pointing out Ukrainian attacks on world food supplies!
They did what
https://quokk.au/comment/5587173
Russia is the world’s largest wheat exporter and most of those exports are shipped via its Black Sea ports like Novorossiysk. Russia’s main grain lobby group warned last month that Ukrainian drone attacks could shut down grain exports via the Black Sea in the near future, pushing up prices and causing hunger in Africa and the Middle East.
Ukraine is also a significant wheat exporter and invading it in a war of aggression didn’t really help with that tbh:
- https://www.csis.org/analysis/war-ukraine-and-global-food-security-impacts-four-years-later
- https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-024-01915-5
Remember the wheat shortage in Northern Africa that almost turned into a famine in 2022… yeah. Maybe we should blame the side that started the war more than the side that is defending against an aggressor, even if the latter uses some shady tactics, like targeting non-military targets. It’s not like the other side were above that.
Ukraine is also a significant wheat exporter and invading it in a war of aggression
You seem to be confused - Ukraine is the one on the side of NATO in these conflicts (including Syria).
Also, what do you think a state should do when the most prolific invader in the world gathers weapons and military personnel on its borders, especially after doing a coup against a neighbouring state?
Alright, here goes the sarcasm. I must’ve forgot the NATO invasion of Crimea in 2014. Sorry 'bout that. Wasn’t there this whole story of NATO stripping the voting rights of Crimean folks who wanted to join Russia just before the impromptu post-hoc referendum to justify that invasion? I must’ve also forgot about the NATO invasion of Georgia in 2008, darn! But I’m pretty sure I remember the invasion of Donbas and Luhansk in 2022 quite right.
As for your second argument:
what do you think a state should do when the most prolific invader in the world gathers weapons and military personnel on its borders
Great question! Now do the same for the Baltics or Sweden. You’ll be surprised how nervous smaller countries get when one of the strongest armies in the world regularly executes larger and larger maneuvers at their borders and in their airspace. They might even think about joining a defensive military alliance. If Russia doesn’t want that, then it was not the brightest move to double down and invade Ukraine.
I must’ve forgot the NATO invasion of Crimea in 2014
Not sure what you are even trying to imply here, considering that Russia’s actions in Crimea (a part of Ukraine that tried to secede from Ukraine before, and the population of which overwhelmingly wanted to join Russia, according to studies conducted by NATO) came after and as a response to NATO’s aggression (including NATO doing a coup against the Ukrainian government - which you are completely fine with).
If you were trying to claim that the invaders of Iraq (at least twice), Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, Palestine, and many other places are not the most prolific invaders in the world, then you were just being extremely silly.
Wasn’t there this whole story of NATO stripping the voting rights of Crimean folks who wanted to join Russia just before the impromptu post-hoc referendum to justify that invasion?
Again, not sure what you are trying to imply, considering that the population of Crimea was very anti-NATO and did try to secede from Ukraine as early as 1990s, and NATO’s studies also concluded that the population of Crimea wanted to join Russia.
But you don’t think that Crimea deserves self-determination, do you?I must’ve also forgot about the NATO invasion of Georgia in 2008, darn!
You mean when Georgia attacked South Ossetians and Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia? Do tell how that situation should have been handled.
Great question! Now do the same for the Baltics or Sweden.
You didn’t answer the question.
Also, not sure what I should be doing for the nazi chihuahuas that are literally a part of the most prolific invader in the world (and literally organise parades in honour of SS troops).You’ll be surprised how nervous smaller countries get when one of the strongest armies in the world regularly executes larger and larger maneuvers at their borders and in their airspace.
Well, they should probably stop invading everywhere, then, and pay reparations to the people of Iraq, Iran, Syria, Afghanistan, Palestine, and many other places.
Really bizarre to imply that they are some innocent victims of “one of the strongest armies in the world” when they are a part of the polity with the most expensive and vile military in the world.
Also bizarre to pretend as if they couldn’t, for example, ally with Russia if they needed protection from somebody. There was literally nothing preventing that (other than their greed and racism).They might even think about joining a defensive military alliance.
It’s cute how you pretend that the invaders of Iraq and Afghanistan, the genocidaires of Palestine are a “defensive alliance”.
NATO leadership itself admits that it’s just there to do whatever the US tells them to do.If Russia doesn’t want that, then it was not the brightest move to double down and invade Ukraine.
NATO leadership has nobody but itself to blame for pushing for war with Russia (by their own admission) and then being beaten.
I feel like our interpretation of events differs enough not to really warrant further discussion. Nevertheless, here are the responses to your requests:
- Most importantly, I don’t think we will agree on whether a revolution or a coup happened in 2014 Ukraine. Of note here is that 73% of the parliament voted the president out of office, which gives this “coup” a pretty decent democratic basis.
- In addition to that fundamental disagreement, I think we are circling a hen-an-egg problem here, because I can always bring up some earlier aggression from Russia / the Soviet Union and then you can bring up some earlier aggression by NATO. They were in a cold war: There’s plenty. Fact is, both the invasion of 2014 and of 2022 were illegal by international law and by the very agreements that Russia had signed before.
- By all statistics which I’m aware of you are correct that most Crimeans wanted to join Russia in 2014. To make sure that was also reflected in the polls, multiple records of manipulation have been recorded by government and non-government organizations, the most severe IMO being to take away people’s identity documents. Various sources linked on the wiki, e.g., this one. The referendum was also held after Russian troops invaded the peninsula, whch is definitely not okay: Irrespective of the outcome of a referendum, Sweden could not just seize St. Petersburg and then hold a referendum there; that’d be absurd. And all this is irrespective of the genuinely difficult question whether such a referendum is binding. Neither the Ukrainian constitution nor the international agreements of 2003 (co-signed by Russia) contain such a mechanism. Secession is also not considered a general right by international law and it would probably lead to chaos if border regions constantly changed hands. However, I understand the semi-normative appeal of a referendum and I concede that most Crimeans are probably alright with being Russian for now. You may contrast the parliamentary decision I quote further up with this referendum and you are right to do so. Legally speaking, one of them just changed the government of an existing state while the other one moved the borders; the latter of which is much more invasive to the international order. The first one also asked the representatives of that whole country (alas, did not ask every single person in that country), while the second one only asked the region in question.
- This also leads to my next point: It seems that most of Ukrainians want to associate with Europe. If Russia is so big about letting people choose whom they want to associate with, why invade Ukraine in 2022? The same argument works for the occupied part of Georgia. Or for the regions predominantly settled by Crimean Tartars.
- And if we do bring up the middle east for some reason, it also applies to the Kurds. However, I don’t think bringing up the middle east contributes much to the topic at hand. Are you saying Russia was protecting countries in the middle east by carrying out military maneuvers over the Swedish airspace? Sweden and the Baltics didn’t really play an instrumental part in any of these campaigns. Did the US illegally invade some countries? Oh for sure! And they totally did pull NATO countries into some of these campaigns (e.g., Operation Enduring freedom). But how does that justify regularly threatening the Baltics or Sweden (the latter of which even used to be neutral before its chagrined association with NATO due to growing pressure from the East)?
- Are you suggesting the Baltics and Sweden should’ve allied with Russia to prevent them from being invaded by Russia? (Edit 2: That worked our really well for the democratic movement in Belarus… /s).
- In my reading of history, the Baltics and Sweden suffered both under Nazi occupation and Soviet occupation and both are commemorated with much pain and suffering in those countries; Nazi occupation of these countries, although a terrible part of history, is not really related to this discussion, though.
- Finishing with a petty little point on the side: Russia is not fighting NATO right now. Russia is fighting Ukraine, which receives weapons from NATO. With NATO boots on the ground, this conflict would look very different very quickly. However, NATO is demonstrating that, at least for now, it remains a defensive alliance that only springs into action when a member state is attacked by a foreign state adversary (or in the case of Operation Enduring freedom “a foreign state adversary”).
Edit: Adding this for completeness: I brought up Sweden and the Baltics because the second strongest military in the world (Russia) has much less reason of being afraid of the 26th strongest military (Sweden), than Sweden has a reason to be afraid vice versa. Even saying that Russia was afraid of the USA by proxy doesn’t change this much, A) because the US is not in Sweden, they could just project through Sweden, while Russia could actually march at Sweden if it wanted to, but more importantly, B) because number 2 vs number 1 is a much less drastic difference than number 2 vs number 26. Ranking linked here. Before 2022, everyone thought Russia could just overrun its neighbor states (like Ukraine) whenever it wanted to and this drove many of them into the arms of NATO, which has yet to invade a member state.
Violence is not the answer. Violence is the question. The answer is “Yes”
You can identify the liberals in this thread because they dislike this, but can’t provide a single credible argument against it.
I discovered that John Stuart Mill, the great liberal thinker, worked in the East India Company his whole life. There is no daylight between liberalism and colonial oppression.
