Old man alert. Nerd alert. EXTREME snoozefest alert. You’ve been warned, continue reading at your own peril!

originally posted in /c/technology but was removed quickly, presumably because it’s not considered a tech article or news. This is probably the better fit anyhow

For those who aren’t familiar with the Brave browser, its history and controversies, or Gecko engine vs. Chromium engine (and loosely, Webkit), it’s probably worth reading up on first. I’m writing this with the assumption that you know all of this stuff, because otherwise this post would be an even longer novel than it already is.

Brave recently released a paid version of their browser called Brave Origin which strips out a bunch of “features” like web3, AI, crypto, telemetry, etc.

It has a dedicated installer separate from the normal browser, except on mobile where the features can be batch disabled after verifying your license. You can also do it that way on the desktop version if you want to. Apparently a standalone android Origin app may be in the works, and the licensing system does seem to be relatively privacy preserving and not overly restrictive.

It’s pretty damn expensive (except for Linux where it’s free). And I must say that I feel like an outlier, because I strongly approve of this release and the direction I’m seeing the company take.

Let me state these right now:

  • Brave’s controversies are real and they were completely unacceptable and they are a permanent mark on their reputation. It’s no wonder many distrust them.
  • I’m fully aware that this still indirectly utilizes Google’s work, and that Google creates open source projects, pumps a ton of money into them, gets a ton of contributers on board, and then starts introducing proprietary blobs which handicaps competition while effectively squeezing free work and investment out of others.
  • I love FOSS with all my heart.
  • I could add a bunch of disclaimers but I’ll address them if I see something in the comments.

In a perfect world I would hate Brave’s decision. In our current reality I think it’s about the best move they could’ve made as a for-profit company outside of just creating their own browser engine. But there’s a reason there are so few options for engines right now, and it’s because it’s really fucking complex to make one and it takes a fuckload of time, money, and resources. When somebody develops a genuine engine contender, I’ll need to circle back.

Many of us use Firefox (or FF fork) with extensions. Many use ungoogled Chromium or other Chromoum forks. Obviously totally fine.

But there’s a few issues with the current browser space, as I see them.

First is that the reality is, much of the web now treats Chrome (rather, the Chromium engine) as a first-class citizen. Some sites run significantly faster or more reliably on Chromium. Some sites require Chromium to fully function. For example, want to use the GrapheneOS web installer? You need a Chromium-based browser. Chromium has lots of features under the hood that the modern web utilizes. If this has never been a consideration for you, then this particular point is moot.

Second is that data harvesting and tracking is becoming wayyy more advanced than even some techies might know about - and let’s be real, it’s becoming pretty fucking exhausting to keep up with the growing pile of bullshit being thrown our way. It’s also becoming harder and harder to stop. In both Gecko and Chromium you can, to varying degrees, install extensions, use browser forks, adjust settings, etc. to prevent much or even all of this. But the absolutely unfathomable amount of money being poured into violating your privacy needs hard, sustained, expensive work to fight in meaningful and new ways. One recent example I read about is brave implementing a new GPU anti-fingerprinting measure which is something I hadn’t even considered before.

Third is that the Internet of today is just straight-up busted. Yes there are super cool projects in the works such as I2P that are trying to change that. But they’re not reaching mass adoption any time soon. Most people can’t even bother trying to leave for places like Lemmy and that’s much less friction than I2P. I absolutely am not defeatist, and I fight this shit like the plague it is, but we also need to live our lives.

Fourth is that the way we use the internet varies. There’s a lot of things we could do to make sure we’re always maximally protected, but usually we find a balance. Stuff we daily drive, stuff we use when there’s a specific need, stuff we’re forced to use. If you’re hardcore enough to do things to the max at all times then you don’t even need to read this - you can browse in Mullvad Browser with (or without) a VPN or the Tor Browser, and supplement with OS and hardware privacy measures, etc… and you’re likely better protected for it. But for me, and I suspect for many others, in typical daily use we want the right balance of speed, usability, privacy, and security.

Those “features” that brave bundles in are really shitty. But the mass market time and time again shows they’ll put up with a lot of bullshit. And for most people you can just manually toggle the majority of these things off in the main browser for free, and it doesn’t take more than a few minutes. These features, like it or not, pull in a lot more money than what most non-profits get when solely relying on donations. Hell, one of the huge things keeping Firefox propped up is their search engine deal with Google, not the donations.

Brave, like it or not, does provide some pretty compelling value in other places. First and foremost it’s good to see people seeking out alternatives to Chrome for literally any reason. But they are admittedly super on-top of their Ad-blocking, anti-fingerprinting, other privacy features (like the shred tab button), and update cadence. They’re the closest thing to a well-funded Chrome competitor that, unfortunately for our reality, runs on Chromium.

I get that it feels wrong to pay to remove features from your browser. But you know what, I’m sick of the micro transaction ad filled privacy invading bulls hit joke of an economy the internet has accepted at large. If it were up to me I would bring back freeware and shareware. Brave is the modern day WinRAR in an alternate universe where 7zip wasn’t invented yet and the built in unzip still didn’t support other formats.

I’m going to continue using my Gecko based browsers as I always have. But for when I want or need something from Chromium, I think Brave Origin is my new go-to. For me that’s when I need certain hardware integration or I’m on a specific site, and chromium in my experience works very well with Android. One other thing I learned which to me is a definite plus, is that it was developed by the Ex-Ceo of Mozilla and creator of JavaScript (that was cool to learn, and that’s one guy btw, not two).

For those who think this I’m suspiciously positive about Brave, I get it. I literally thought of brave as spyware until I read about Brave Origin. I think it’s a sincere effort to correct course in a way that let’s them operate at the level they need to maintain their product. For most people reading this who feel like trying Brave, they should just spend 5 minutes adjusting the browser settings. If you’re clinically insane like me, and you actually resonated with this post, then maybe try it. And if you wanna buy it and chargeback or find a torrent or whatever, I don’t really care.

I suppose this post is solely about Brave if we lived in a vacuum. But actually I think it’s about sharing a mindset which I think can help the internet improve just a little bit, Brave or not.

Finally, let me end on a tangent about Alphabet Inc., mostly Google. That company is full of very smart sociopaths people who grabbed the internet by its collective ballsack, and while it may have felt good for a minute, they started squeezing them until you forgot what it feels like to have your balls flapping in the wind again. They made AOSP and then fucked us. They made Chromium and then fucked us. They did the heavy lifting for RCS and then fucked us. Google fucking sucks. And RIP to the word ‘googol’, you were robbed.

Honourable Webkit mention for Orion browser, and also their search engine Kagi which I fucking ADORE!

Tl;dr Brave Origin is alright, maybe try it, or don’t.

  • lime!@feddit.nu
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    13 days ago

    interestingly, if your choice is to allow the stuff that calls home or pay to disable, that is illegal under the gdpr.

    also the founder is still a bigot so i don’t really want to give them money.

    • stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.caOP
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      13 days ago

      Didn’t know that about the GDPR! That’s pretty interesting you’re right, haha. I wonder if they just don’t care to officially market in the EU. From my past limited business involving the EU it was a royal pain in the ass… I’m not complaining though, it’s just what you gotta comply with for the legal right to sell within it.

      I’m not gonna run defense for the founder lol, you’ve got a reasonable position obviously.

    • kestrel7_7@lemmy.world
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      13 days ago

      Yep, we already had a word for software that spies on you until you pay the creator—“ransomware.”

  • Feyd@programming.dev
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    13 days ago

    I don’t know how anyone can trust brave after the shit they pulled. They told us who they are. Believe them.

    • stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.caOP
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      13 days ago

      Them earning my trust was pretty unexpected for me as well. It’s a rare thing for me to 180 on something like I did.

      Hopefully my trust is not misplaced. No doubt in my mind that they’ve permanently lost a huge subset of customers who would actually be very interested in what they’re doing otherwise.

  • Echo5@lemmy.world
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    13 days ago

    Appreciate your post, nice to see people having level takes for something. I normally go through all my browser settings anyway during setup so a lot of the technical issues people were having I see as nonissue, UNLESS it gets added in during an update (where I wouldn’t notice) and is opt-out, not opt-in. It’s a good recommend for new users who aren’t super tech savvy and just need a plug and play.

    • stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.caOP
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      13 days ago

      That’s a point I should have expanded on more as well, getting new users to something is how you either help something flourish or kill it.

      Gamers moving to Linux brought tons of people and motivated money. The kernel that is Linux has good people working on it so it’s improvements for everyone.

      Brave seems, in my view, to be taking a sort of hybrid approach, where they’re still extracting value out of most people, but allowing the more tech-savvy people to disable the shit, or pay for a build of the browser that has that shit literally omitted from the codebase. I see that as a win for tech-saavy people, and not even necessarily at the huge expense of the non-savvy people because if they were gonna use a shit browser like Chrome before then they’re at least better off switching to something that natively blocks ads for them. Then the nerds can do what they do, and little Johnny can still browse for porn, but now he doesn’t have ads. And that’s all little Johnny ever wanted.

    • stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.caOP
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      13 days ago

      Thanks! I’m all for choice. What I wouldn’t agree with is calling something strictly “better”.

      I can’t comment on Helium because I haven’t used it personally, though I’ve heard good things.

      I’ll check out Cromite, never heard of it.

      One thing I’ll mention though is that Vanadium was built (as the GrapheneOS devs intended) with security at the forefront of design, not privacy. They’re two distinct disciplines. I believe the recommendation by the devs for a more private browser is Ironfox. It’s also the only browser trusted by Accrescent, which is the only officially listed app store in the base GrapheneOS app store. (so many app stores lol)

      I’m still ride or die on the idea of a modern freeware vs shareware style model. Just statistically speaking Brave is taking in more cash and if they’re spending it wisely, such as creating new anti-fingerprinting and Ad-blocking methods, etc., which they seem to be doing, then that’s a pro in their favour. It’s not strictly better or worse. It’s like, I really like using free and FOSS apps, but I also have plenty of closed-source apps that I see the value in and accept that tradeoff for.

    • sudoer777@lemmy.ml
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      13 days ago

      I read on the GrapheneOS forums that Cromite lags behind on updates and that Titanium is better

  • w3dd1e@lemmy.zip
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    13 days ago

    Brave owns an ad network and that’s all I need to know to never use any of their products.

    There are other comparable options that have better companies behind them.

    Kagi’s Orion has not given me a reason to hate them except that it isn’t open source. They don’t sell your data and they don’t serve ads.

    I can use uBlock on Orion,

    • stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.caOP
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      13 days ago

      Yeah, totally fair. We’ve all got a line and that’s what I hoped to make clear in my post. I’m not pro-brave per se, I just happen to align with the path I see them taking with Origin.

      If they go the Bambu Labs route or something, imma dip.

  • theherk@lemmy.world
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    13 days ago

    I have tinkered with Orion. It has a lot of promise, but it is still a bit buggy. I’m all Firefox since before it was Firefox, but I respect your assessment. I’m also looking forward to Ladybird, even though it also has its fair share of controversy.

    Recent Firefox has been really good to me. Vertical tabs and new design are excellent; though I don’t seem to be with the crowd in that.

    One small feedback that is meant less as a correction and more in case people are curious. Chromium isn’t an engine, it is an open source browser. The Gecko / WebKit equivalent here is Blink.

    • stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.caOP
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      13 days ago

      The respect goes both ways!

      You’re right that it’s not an engine, it’s a codebase. I probably shouldn’t have minced words there, it’s just that everyone knows Chromium but I don’t think most will know Blink.

      Correction is appreciated. Ty!

  • eldyaitch@lemmy.zip
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    13 days ago

    Sad the internet trolls need so many disclaimers. For example:

    • I don’t really like tofu.

    I appreciate your post because I switched to Brave maybe 5+ years ago and have been very pleased. I knew of Brave origin, but I had no idea it was free for Linux?! Super good news for me then. The first thing I do on a fresh Brave install is disable all of it’s creature comforts and crypto. By the time I’m done tweaking every setting, it’s as if my browser has short-term memory loss just the way I like it. I don’t need it to remember. I have extensions and bookmarks for things I want to keep track of. For this, Brave has allowed me to say “No” in all the ways other browsers weren’t.

    • stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.caOP
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      Yep I don’t really like putting disclaimers either but the trust level on the internet is most definitely the lowest it has ever been.

      Wow so you’ve been on that Brave train for a while, huh? And yeah that Linux move is actually part of what made me think they’re being sincere in their efforts. They probably know the Linux crowd isn’t putting up with bullshit. I use Linux too and I still bought it because I do use other platforms and I’m at the point where I’m voting hard with my wallet, sometimes to my own detriment lol

      “Short term memory loss” is a good way to put that feature and I really love it. I wish there was a way to exclude certain sites from that though.

  • Jo Miran@lemmy.ml
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    13 days ago

    I am a Firefox & forks diehard, but I need a Chromium/Webkit/Whatever based browser for a lot of corporate shit I have to access. So, I bit the bullet and bought Brave Origin. It doesn’t suck. I wouldn’t pick it as my main, but it’s fine. Much better option than Chrome and Edge, that’s for certain.

  • enchantedgoldapple@sopuli.xyz
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    13 days ago

    Appreciate your post very much. I used to use Brave as my primary browser a few years back but Lemmy basically guilt-tripped me into ditching it for Firefox even though it was working perfectly fine for me. Although now I have naturally grown accustomed to Firefox forks for my daily use, it’s nice to see that I’ll have another viable alternative if I ever need a Chromium browser.

    • stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.caOP
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      13 days ago

      I’m happy to hear you appreciated it, thanks.

      I get it, it’s hard to broach a controversial topic or a nuanced topic online sometimes without things exploding in your face.

      Lemmy seems pretty decent for giving these topics a chance if you make a sincere case and you cover your bases.

      Even still it’s not a guarantee. Honestly the most freeing advice (that I’m gonna give and that you didn’t ask for) is to speak your mind if you wanna speak your mind. Recognizing that we’re all different, that many arguments boil down to opinion, and that the up votes and down votes can’t affect you - it’s quite freeing.

      Anyhow yeah I’d say use it if you wanna use it but I strongly recommend disabling all the shit that is there just to generate money at the very least.

  • artyom@piefed.social
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    13 days ago

    Brave is not perfect but it does objectively have some privacy features that other browsers simply don’t. Like syncing devices with a passphrase (no account), and it’s also the only browser I’m aware of that has and continues to develop browser fingerprinting protections.

    • im_fine_sandy@nord.pub
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      13 days ago

      Doesn’t Firefox have fingerprinting protections which are disabled by default? LibreWolf enables them by default.

      • artyom@piefed.social
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        13 days ago

        A lot of them claim this but I’m yet to see it. Most “fingerprinting protections” involve just having everyone using the same stats and trying to blend in. Brave does this by randomization instead, which is far more effective. They also just released GPU randomization. Orion claims to this day that fingerprinting resistance is impossible, which is preposterous because Brave is doing it today.

        https://brave.com/privacy-updates/38-webgl-webgpu-fingerprinting-protections/

    • stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.caOP
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      13 days ago

      That’s a big part of it for me as well. I know not everyone will find value in the anti-fingerprinting stuff but I personally do. And tbh I think the fact that they’re making the effort to actually develop rather than stick with the norm, which they could totally do, is pretty fucking cool.

      Sometimes it’s a battle of lesser evils and the referee is reality. Although I’m no longer convinced the people behind brave are an evil, per se. Not everything can be as ideal as fully open source and free software while keeping up with the times.

      For example, there’s a lot of encryption software out there that does the same thing as Veracrypt, but I choose Veracrypt every time because for my needs it exceeds the closed source competition and it works really fucking well.

      So the pendulum swings to both sides.

  • Zerush@lemmy.ml
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    13 days ago

    I’m happy with Vivaldi since over 10 Years and Zen as second, both European Browsers which don’t sell my data and my soul. Ethics respect the user and transparency are very important for me and Brave don’t offer it, but shady business models. Thanks

    • stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.caOP
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      13 days ago

      Yeah man stick to your principles and if you’ve been happy with it for so long then it would be silly for you to try it anyhow.

  • kestrel7_7@lemmy.world
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    13 days ago

    Dude. This is just ransomware with better marketing.

    If it spies on you until you pay the creator, that’s ransomware.

  • yestalgia@lemmy.world
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    I was using a Gecko based browser on GrapheneOS until I recently learned that all of the frequent stuttering when scrolling that I was tolerating for months was related to the browser being anything besides chromium based!

    So I’m back on Brave for my main browser across platforms even though I was wanting to support the open web with a Gecko browser.

    • stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.caOP
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      13 days ago

      That was quite literally my exact experience, like 100% exact.

      So what I’m hoping at least is that they will release an Origin build for Android so we can truly have the stuff removed rather than just disabled.

      It’s really kind of a shame, I tried so hard with Ironfox and eventually I noticed I just stopped opening it anymore, and that’s when I had to make a choice.

      • JamesBoeing737MAX@sopuli.xyz
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        13 days ago

        Try Titanium browser - vanadium with extensions (compatible with UB origin lite).

        I use it when some pages don’t work on Waterfox on my underpowered redmi. It’s tolerable.

    • stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.caOP
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      13 days ago

      Dude I get it, I live too much of my life analyzing network traffic, blocking garbage in pi-hole. If I decide to trust, I still need to verify. Not trusting Brave, especially in its default config, is absolutely justified.

  • steelplatedmech@piefed.ca
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    13 days ago

    I don’t have a problem with Origin, since Firefox stripped of telemetry, ai, and sponsorships is something I’d be happy to pay a one time fee for even if I can disable it.

    Having everything stripped from the installer by default from the official source is nice, and lot of projects don’t get funding from most users. So offering something like this seems fine with me.

    • stinkytofuisgood@lemmy.caOP
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      13 days ago

      I agree with you but just want to make sure you know that the mobile version currently only allows unlocking the origin features in the standard app rather than downloading a stripped down app, which is nearly equivalent to just disabling it manually.

      So if you’re gonna get it, do it for the desktop versions and to support that practice like you said. I hope they’ll provide a way to download it through Obtanium or F-Droid in the future, but my gut says they’re not at that level of enlightenment haha. But I could be wrong, they did make the Linux version free and that was really unexpected to me!

      And cause this is the internet, lemme warn you my Spidey senses are tingling about you calling it stripped Firefox. I get what you mean, obviously, but it’s the internet and even on Lemmy you’re not safe from nerd-retribution