Good. Those type of disgusting things who don’t deserve to call themselves men will grow up to become disgusting things like pedo-protecting republikkkans.
So weird that people want to use this logic for SA, but not for stuff like non-violent drug offenses.
Did I misunderstand your comment, or are you trying to argue that recreational drug use is as bad as being a rapist? I dunno about you, but I much rather have a drug user in office than a sex offender.I think they meant the top part–“not wanting to ruin someone’s life” should apply to non-harmful acts, but in some people’s minds rape isn’t “as” harmful as having your life ruined or something…
Yeah that’s what I meant.
“But you’ll ruin…”
No the fuck you won’t. They ruined it with their choices and actions. He’ll face consequences for what he did, not for what someone else said.
It’s coming from the same cohort of people who lynched black men for looking the wrong way at a white woman. There’s no unforgivable deed to them, only in groups and out groups.
I was gonna write a reply to this, but I felt it was more appropriate as a top comment, so I’m gonna paste the link here.
And what if they didn’t actually SA’d and it is a false claim?
Well that’d be a different context entirely. The premise here was that they had, but it would be unfair to make them face the consequences of their actions.
Then… don’t report him…
False reports of rape and sexual assault fall in line with false reporting of other crimes. Between 2-5%.
Well, your own sources say the opposite, so you are contradicting yourself, or perhaps you didn’t actually read your own sources, but instead sent whatever you thought supported your biases.
Methodologically rigorous research finds 2-8%
In contrast, when more methodologically rigorous research has been conducted, estimates for the percentage of false reports begin to converge around 2-8%.
• For example, in a multi-site study of 8 U.S. communities involved in the “Making a Difference” (or “MAD”) Project, data were collected by law enforcement agencies for all sexual assault reports received in an 18-24 month period. Of the 2,059 cases that were included in the study, 140 (7%) were classified as false.
This is particularly noteworthy because a number of measures were taken to protect the reliability and validity of the research. First, all participating law enforcement agencies were provided training and technical assistance in an ongoing way to ensure that they were applying consistent definitions for a false report. In addition, a random sample of cases was checked for data entry errors.
More information on the MAD Project is available at http://www.evawintl.org/.
If you trust the Americans justice system to keep incarcerating those judges guilty, then why don’t you trust their system to judge appropriately for those that SA people? I get the feeling from this comment that a very large part of it is just plain misogyny. It is a fact that women already suffer harsher prison terms for comparable crimes to men. Even with the inappropriate harsh terms minorites serve. It’s clear from studies on this subject and all your comments do it discourage all genders from reporting. The American justice system seems fine with their jailing of other innocent’s, just to “make sure ppl feel safe”. It’s broken all over the place, people are suffering, I don’t have a solution. I do encourage speaking up! The Constitution and Bill of Rights ensure the option of speaking publicly about problems to attempt to solve them. Be a part of the solution, stop preventing discussion of the issues!
Because I don’t even trust the US justice system to start lmao.
Then the courts will sort it out
I hope courts were efficient. They’re not, unfortunately. Both victims of SA and the (even if few) victims of FA live hell in earth there. It’s depressing.
Ok but name a better alternative.
That’s why I say it’s depressing. I don’t see a clear exit to this mess.
In any case, just because I (for now) can’t name a better alternative doesn’t mean that the current option is good or desirable, nor that a better alternative doesn’t exist. Your making a TINA and a false dilemma fallacy.
Right but I mean there really isn’t a huge issue with false accusations of any other crime, sonindont see why anyone cares so desperately about these false accusations.
If you did the crime then fuck you, if you didn’t then I feel for you and I’m sure it’s going to be a hellish time, but going somewhere you are innocent until proven guilty is your best possible place to be as an innocent person accused of a crime
I mean there really isn’t a huge issue with false accusations of any other crime, sonindont see why anyone cares so desperately about these false accusations.
It’s literally just a way to discredit rape victims and defend rapists.
I have such an issue because I lived a false allegation, and not, is not the same as being falsely accused of theft or name any other minor crime. That shit hits different, as if you were falsely accused of killing someone.
CW: SA
I’ve suffered SA two times, too, one of them being a children, so I’m not speaking from the ignorance, and that’s why I’m so vindictive towards actual rapists, as others of my comments in this thread reveal.
“Also, and hear me out, asshole enablers like you will ensure he always has a brighter future.”
“you’ll ruin his life”
Why does it look like his spider emblem has a phat badonkadonk
Get a phat spider badonkadonk in 6 weeks with this simple trick!
Ironically Pete calling out Brock’s fake pics in Spiderman 3
A lot of the positions you’re thinking of the person taking are extremely competitive. So, while that situation is unenviable, you can also think of it as promoting a more worthy candidate.
Still doesn’t pass over the simple idea that there should be more jobs available. (Maybe even more judges/lawyers/doctors)
This. This comes up when people whine about the unfairness of checking credit for apartments/jobs or standardized test scores for college. The way people bitch and moan, you’d think the landlord is going to burn down the house if you have a single late payment on your credit report. But you have to put yourself in the shoes of the other person and acknowledge that it’s not more fair to ignore those things. It’s just kind of arbitrary on the margins.
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Ah, so you don’t want to report illegal activities because it’s the right thing to do morally, but because you can be vindictive against an overly generalised group of people?
because you can be vindictive against an overly generalised group of people?
Oh boo hoo
Ah, so you see no problem with the attitude of “I just want to hurt men”?
She was obviously joking
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There is a difference between tattling because someone did something illegal and revealing the true nature of a predator. That’s not snitching, that’s accountability.
This will be taken the wrong way, as usual, but…
I wish society would both encourage such reporting without subtle victim blaming, which is what discourages so many to say anything for years, if ever. I also wish society wouldn’t assume one side is right and the other wrong before the evidence is out. Some men’s lives have been ruined by false allegations. I’m not going to argue about how few, lots of them are also a problem. But we should be an innocent before proven guilty society. We aren’t, and people will still look at someone who ended up innocent after a false claim as if they did do something wrong.
Ruin the guys who are rapists. But sometimes that claim is used as a weapon without any substance, and that’s terrible for those who need justice done. I wish we could do better than that.
We’ll see how much of all that gets twisted around to mean something else I didn’t say… :/
False reports of rape and sexual assault fall in line with false reporting of other crimes. Between 2-5%.
It says something when you pop up in every one of these discussions to talk about false rape claims.
Rhaedas never said otherwise, only that it happens and we shouldn’t condemn anyone until the facts are out. This is not controversial.
Two women filed false reports against me. One because I broke up with her. Shakespeare had something to say about a scorned woman. The other was my ex-wife trying to block me from seeing my kids.
Didn’t fight the first allegation, didn’t care about a restraining order from a woman I never wished to see again. Then her and her boss lied and said I violated that order immediately after it was delivered. Spent a night in jail over that. It got dropped because after being served, I was on video at the courthouse next to our home where I awaited a ride. That order caused me problems for a decade.
Having learned my lesson, I immediately fought my ex in court. She claimed to be in fear of me, from 600 miles away and without a scrap of evidence. Funny enough, this claim came three years after she left, and directly on the heels of my lawyer starting custody proceedings. Ain’t that a thing! Judge threw it out and the next judge handed her her ass for keeping my children from me for so very long.
So you might understand why “believe the woman” rubs me wrong. It should be “don’t ignore allegations”.
EDIT: Forgot to note, neither of these instances made it into your false reporting stat. How could they have?
You have already admitted on this site that you raped a 16 year old girl when you were 24 years old.
…Had sex with a 16-yo around 24.
She wasn’t a dog or 12-yo. 16 is not a child, at least it wasn’t when I was that age. We have this thing, and this may be a new word for you, called “adolescence”. It’s a weird in-between stage, neither adult nor child. At that age I was a naive little fucker, but I had this thing, probably another new word for ya, called “agency”. I could make decisions and be held accountable for them by my peers and adults. That seems to be an alien concept to the young folks around here who didn’t have sex until they were 23, if ever. I was fucking, working a job and driving at 16, typical in the 80s. What was your experience? (I’ll note that not a soul has ever directly answered this question.)
I said something in one single other discussion. I don’t appreciate the implied remark.
I won’t say anything anymore about it, because clearly that targets me as a problem.
You argued enough that it created a lasting impression to me.
You don’t need to victimize yourself here because I recognized that this is a common perspective from you when we’re talking about holding rapists accountable.
So, as opposed to other ways a false accusation can ruin a person’s life, what - exactly - justifies treating false accusations of rape differently?
In other words, what’s your fucking point?
Rape often has less concrete evidence that other severe crimes. Murder convictions have been overturned because the alleged victim turned up alive, which has led to stricter standards for murder convictions. If we applied the same standard to rape, the already low conviction rates would drop to nearly zero.
There are also socially-acceptable reasons to commit many crimes, much more so than for rape (and for good reason). If you believe an allegation of murder, you may well have some doubt in your mind about whether it was understandable; people who murder their children’s murderers are an easy example. Objectively criminal, but fairly difficult to condemn. Not so with rape; either the crime didn’t occur or it was despicable, no in between.
As such, people can be more angry based on less evidence (neither one necessarily for bad reasons) about rape accusations compared to accusations of other heinous acts. This gives the accusations, including false ones, more power.
This gives the accusations, including false ones, more power.
When the conviction rate for rape and sexual assault is sitting around 8%, real and false reports of rape have very little power.
The power I was talking about is completely separate from conviction rates. Ask Emmett Till how much consolation it is that he wasn’t convicted.
Never mind that coming forward with allegations against powerful men ALSO ruins the victims life in highly patriarchal societies. Hell, half the time, the victims are ruined and the predators are celebrated for “beating the allegations.”
Like I need people to understand, NO ONE has ever become rich and famous by accusing a rich person of sexually assaulting them.
They still get to be president, look at pedo Trump
“But you’ll ruin that young man’s life if you report him…”
Good.
Ruining his life falsely implies he deserves to live
To add to that: it’d be really neat if being reported for SA didn’t ruin the abuser’s life but instead fixed whatever is wrong with them so that they don’t come out of prison 10 years later and do it again. Some of these people are pathologically dangerous. They go to prison criminals and come out criminals. Some.
They have them in there for years and do barely anything to change them. They just “store them” there and then let them back out for society to deal with them.
That “abolish prisons” policy, I believe by the US dem-socs, doesn’t sound all that bad when you think about all the different ways prison fails us. Some countries have near 50% overall rates of reoffending.
I remember once seeing a news story where someone who had just gotten out of prison murdered someone. People in the comments were saying he shouldn’t have been let out. How after years in prison, of course he’s going to be dangerous. Gotta love when the tough on crime people accidentally realize the futility of the prison system.
The goal SHOULD be to make criminals into productive members of society. Unfortunately, the actual goal in many places is to make criminals keep reoffending to make more money for the business of incarcerating people. Or sometimes the goal is just to punish, with no thought about the long-term utility. Some people just think some people deserve to suffer and don’t care about the utility for society. It’s the same reason they oppose social safety nets.
Restorative justice, and yeah it’s a very valuable goal
Some people are just born evil. Or they’re born with something broken in their brains that can never be fixed.
Go talk to some teachers. Ask them about the worst of the worst. You’ll hear some stories.
You hear a lot about “the school to prison pipeline,” but there are some kids that you can just look at them and say, “that kid is going to die in prison.” I’m talking about kids that assault their teachers and other students. I’m talking kids that steal, lie, and manipulate people in cruel and vindictive ways. In some cases they make a game out of deliberately creating false allegations of inappropriate behavior on the part of their teachers. They actively seek to destroy lives. I’m talking about kids that go through every program and intervention, that receive every form of support and counseling imaginable. Kids that receive nothing but compassion, caring and understanding…and respond by treating other human beings as disposable garbage fit only for their amusement. It’s a rare kid that is truly this evil, but there are some real monsters out there. Some people are just born evil. There are some people that will simply never see the humanity in other human beings. There is no amount of counseling or coaching that can fix such profoundly broken souls. The best we can do is to warehouse them, to lock them in a place with their own kind, where they’ll never be able to hurt an innocent person ever again.
You cannot teach someone to have empathy. You cannot teach someone to care for other people. You either do, or you don’t.
You cannot teach someone to have empathy. You cannot teach someone to care for other people. You either do, or you don’t.
If they can’t help it, the proper response to them is definitely NOT to treat them like bad little boys who need to be locked away and punished forever while we joke about them getting SA’d in prison.
Evidence for your assertion? Research including meta-analyses of multiple studies shows that empathy is a trainable capacity that can measurably improve through structured education, practice, and social-emotional learning. Schools, workplaces, and medical institutions use specific programs (such as role-playing, active listening exercises, reading literature, and film-based discussions) to boost emotional literacy and perspective-taking. Schools in Denmark set aside one mandatory hour per week for a dedicated class called Klassens Tid (Class Time) for students aged 6 to 16. Problem-Solving & Listening: Rather than focusing on grades or traditional academic subjects during this hour, students sit together to discuss personal or group problems, practice active listening, and find collective solutions to issues like bullying or social exclusion. Around 60% of schoolwork in Denmark is group-based, emphasizing teamwork and supporting peers rather than individual competition. Finland treats empathy as a core competency woven into daily school life rather than a stand alone subject. Students analyze characters’ emotions during reading, mediate their own peer conflicts, and practice emotional resilience through hands-on projects and peer mentoring.
I don’t believe that. Yes, I’m sure you can academically define some quantitative measure of empathy. I’m sure you can put together a scale that will allow you to perform a statistical test on it. But I’m not talking about slightly increasing empathy among normal people. I’m talking about people who are truly psychopaths, those with something broken in their soul.
And the Denmark educational system sounds exactly like the US educational system. We do all that same stuff. If you think K12 education is students sitting in rows listening to lectures, you’re comically out of touch.
I think you replied to the wrong person. I was quoting them.
I’m talking about people who get absolutely every opportunity to learn compassion and empathy for other human beings. Some folks will go through all the trainings you give them, ignore them, and laugh in your face. Some people just don’t give a fuck about you or anyone else. If you can’t recognize that other people have innate value, there’s no helping you.
If you can’t recognize that other people have innate value, there’s no helping you.
You say that about unrepentant criminals, but your attitude demonstrates a lack of recognition of their innate value as people. Really this is an inconsistent, hypocritical worldview to have and I reject it categorically.
No. I don’t reject anyone’s value as a person. But I can also recognize that some people simply do not want or cannot learn to play nice with others. Beyond a certain point, when someone just doesn’t want to change, the best you can do is to keep them from hurting innocent people.
People like you are why teachers end up getting assaulted. Violent kids end up staying in classrooms long past the point they are objectively a threat to everyone around them. Administrators resist expulsion because they think like you do. You recognize the innate value of criminals, but you fail to recognize the innate value of their victims.
Beyond a certain point, when someone just doesn’t want to change, the best you can do is to keep them from hurting innocent people.
Yes, I understand that. My issue is with what seems to be our best solution, which is to consign these people to essentially torture. If they are truly incapable of learning any better, there’s no point in doing anything to them except keep them from harming others, yet we get off on making them suffer.
People like you are why teachers end up getting assaulted.
Go fuck yourself.
Empathy is the ability to recognize, understand, and share the feelings, thoughts, and experiences of another person while keeping them distinct from your own.
The whole Defund The Police and Ending Prisons isn’t about doing away with them altogether. The most radical leftist knows that would be stupid. But warehousing criminals, as they get more and more sociopathic/psychopathic, isn’t a healthy system for a healthy society.
People want the visceral satisfaction of a just punishment, but that’s a wasted opportunity. We have a person that has gone down a bad road, and we have the choice of helping them get back on track, or not. Society is improved with the latter, so shouldn’t we adopt that strategy, rather than just punishing?
There are going to be people who are irredeemable, that’s just reality. Serial killers, out-of-control psychopaths, child molesters, etc, can’t be helped, and those people have to be warehoused. But most people can respond to rehabilitation, as prisons in Europe prove. Their recidivism rate is far, far lower than ours.
We have been doing the wrong things for many years, just because they look good in the media, or make ignorant voters feel good. In ALL things, we should be looking at what other nations are doing right, and start adopting those strategies. I’m sick of our country doing stupid shit, just because we’ve always done it that way, and it makes the worst people in America happy.
Why should the guy that got away with rape be the same guy to decide what’s fair.
I was reading a story on ‘why are fraternities even still allowed’ and it brought up that every judge talked to about the Stanford case had geek letters in their office from their fraternity, then I remember this legal advice I got once, it went like this 'wait till your trial is appointed a judge, find out what fraternity said judge was in, then look for a lawyer who was also in that fraternity. ’ apparently it’s VERY effective. So yeah… it’s actually really crazy.
I hate that I feel like I should remember this advice.
I’ve heard it works a lot better than silly things like innocence, honesty, integrity, and all THAT horse shit.
That’s put perfectly thanks
Disclaimer: Fuck victim blaming; rape victims have every right to report rapists and nobody has the right to tell them to do otherwise.
Gonna play devil’s advocate for a second, but there’s an argument that the punishment doesn’t fit the crime, by which I mean that since society as a whole doesn’t tend to believe in second chances, someone getting convicted for rape would (edit: have the chance to, I overstated my point here) make them unemployable way beyond the point most people would feel further punishment is reasonable (unless they’re rich of course). Asking rape victims not to report their rapists is of course total bullshit—and it’s even more bullshit that this rhetoric is much more socially accepted for rape and similar crimes than it is for, say, theft despite a conviction being similarly disastrous in both cases—but there’s not nothing to the idea the sum total of consequences resulting from the reporting would exceed the level that’s desirable even for such a heinous crime as rape, doubly so for America where the sex offender registry system has received criticism from organizations such as Human Rights Watch. All of which is to say: Part of it is definitely misogyny, but I do wonder if the “you’ll ruin his life” argument would be less common if getting convicted for rape at 20 wasn’t liable to make one homeless (or stuck in the prison-industrial complex) at 60. It would dovetail with the historical pattern (thinking of early modern England here, though that system was far, far crueler) where excessive punishment by the authorities makes it less likely for people to report crimes. Though even that assumes the punishment is excessive; it could definitely be argued that the rapist being homeless 40 years later is an appropriate punishment for the victim having PTSD 40 years later.
PS: To reiterate, fuck victim blaming; rape victims have every right to report rapists and nobody has the right to tell them to do otherwise.
someone getting convicted for rape would make them unemployable way beyond the point most people would feel further punishment is reasonable
Oh really? Because I haven’t seen proof of that. Even Brock Turner has a job.
The entire Epstein class is proof of that. Hell, the legal system treats rapists better than it treats trans or bipoc people
It feels really silly for them to build up these strawman arguments about how rapists have their lives ruined when we have the current administration in power right now.
That’s why I said “unless they’re rich.” Obviously the ruling class gets special privileges.
A 20-year review of reported rape and sexual assault cases found that 89% were “founded” by law enforcement, meaning police determined that the crime more than likely occurred.
But only 8% of reported rape and sexual assault cases ended in conviction.
In other words, police believed most reports, but very few cases led to the perpetrator’s conviction. Survivors can be believed and still not get the legal outcome they seek.
That’s pretty bad but I don’t think it has much to do with the subject? How the actual court system treats rapists (way too leniently) and how the entire rest of society does (the subject of this argument) are two different topics. That said the US court system (and probably most others) is famously skewed towards the rich; it’s just that with what we might call a miss rate of 90% there’s not much room for class divisions to be decisive on a population level.
You brought up how being convicted of rape will make the rapists unemployable.
So I brought statistics about how low the conviction rates are for rapists.
It is NOT just rich people that don’t get prosecuted for rape and sexual assault.
The conviction rate isn’t relevant to the conversation of how the conviction impacts ones life after their sentence is up.
The reason for the low conviction rate is because there’s usually very little evidence, and to convict it should be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.
The Epstein class are the exception to the rules. The working class is held to different standards.
I’m going to have to dig around for evidence for the broader developed world so I can make a decent case (or conclude that there’s no such case and amend/retract what I said), but since your example is from America for now I can refer you to the Human Rights Watch link. But also do you have a source for that?
A source that Brock Turner, the rapist, is currently employed? He’s been working at an Ohio factory:
Yeah, that only doesn’t happens to the Epstein class. To these people down the pyramid, is a hell. Even worse when it comes to false claims.
Brock Turner is not a part of the Epstein class. You’ve already proven your statement false.
Well, that man wasn’t exactly poor, not even mid class. Even if he wasn’t near-the-top, he’s still just one exception to the rule. One single exception can’t prove anything false, as it’s just anecdothical evidence unless it’s against an universal proposition.
he’s still just one exception to the rule.
A 20-year review of reported rape and sexual assault cases found that 89% were “founded” by law enforcement, meaning police determined that the crime more than likely occurred.
But only 8% of reported rape and sexual assault cases ended in conviction.
In other words, police believed most reports, but very few cases led to the perpetrator’s conviction. Survivors can be believed and still not get the legal outcome they seek.
You have had many comments moderated because of your defense of rapists. People can see through you.
What the fuck, I never defended the fucking rapists. What you’re doing is defamation.
CW: SA and FA
Hell, I’ve even been raped two fucking times in my life, one of them when I was a fucking child. I know what I’m talking about because I suffered that and also I have suffered of one false claim. Neither of the two are placid stuff.
I’ve only been trying to nuance things a bit, because most of people jump directly to “trust the (supposed) victims even when there’s no single evidence”, and I can’t deffend that. But apparently that’s defending sexual abusers. But I’m not, I’m just defending the presumption of innocence: someone has to be considered innocent unless proven otherwise.
Your moderation history and past comments are open for everyone to see.
If everyone did it, it would become like drunk driving, where it’s so normalized that juries are not tough enough on it. But it would be better than nothing and it would be a compromise.
If everyone did what?
