That’s a really nice setup! Are those little white foxes on that scarf? It’s so cute!!! Can I ask where did you get it?

If anything my poltical stances have granted me MORE friends. Before I was only friends with a small circle of people directly related to the area around me and I would lose them as they moved away or became interested in other things. However I have gained a ton of friends just for being unapologetically communist. Everything from other ML’s, Professors, and people who arent interested in politics.

My agitation comes from a place of understanding so I don’t really ever end up with arguments with people and always take the position of I could be wrong. But I’m sure I’ve also gotten very lucky in the people I meet. Obviously there are people who are too aggressively reactionary to really get close with and it might be that by being outspoken I’ve attracted people who are more accepting to the ideas.

Artists are petty bourgeois. Amusingly once one knows the basics of dialectical materialism its pretty easy to parse and I did so in my studies when I was learning of how proletariatization comes to artisans. It actually drove me to find a career in this to be in control of my means of production. This was even prior to AI’s large popularity boom. When I use the term artists I think I’m being far more liberal than most. I think a distinction should be made.

“Professional artists” more adequately fill this position. However, because anyone can create inherently and its a form of expression. I’ve been interpreting and using “artist” to mean anyone who makes anything, including memes. A “creative” probably defines better what I was referring to and I wont interpret these such a way again.

Ultimately however petty bourgeois is a subcategory that explains certain groups tendency to capitalist idealism over working class consciousness, despite they themselves not taking part in wage exploitation(or of course smaller business owners but this isn’t the focus here.).

I mention the part implying artists are bourgeois collaborators as being laughable because I’m heavily involved in punk culture. Nearly all artists I know are Anarchist, Marxist, or at minimum hate capitalism. So while I agree with artisans filling this petty bourgeois label, I believe they are able to be pulled into either bourgeois idealism or proletariat materialist struggle. We often see rich and famous artisans, but that is only because they have the money to constantly advertise their work and are in close relation to other bourgeois. Yet most of those who create art are primarily getting their income from the sale of wage-labour.

This is primarily why I thought it was laughable to assume they are incapable of becoming revolutionary. I’m an professional artist and a Marxist-Leninist. I create propaganda and organize for a revolution. I already prove that it is possible to be aligned with proletariat liberation thus the absolute is immediately disproven, let alone any anecdotal evidence of the people I personally know.

The essay is not discussing me for the terms I listed before. I do not fall into the categories of critique it is listed for. I don’t support copyright laws. I’m not arguing against AI for the sake of artists market share. I do not argue that human art has a “soul” only that AI has a reputation, and interpretation that will influence its spread.

I’d argue there’s some reactionary sentiment to anyone who is not 100% backing AI in every place it is implemented in. I’m discussing the reasons I believe it will fall short of expectations and why I think most of AI functions is a honeypot. The linking of an essay as to why artists are bourgeois collaborators despite the reasons I submitted being unrelated I think falls in line with this “Pro AI reactionary” behavior. It’s not a perfect technology. Much like using a hammer to put in a screw isn’t effective even if it works. Which is the initial discussion.

However, it’s actually a really good essay and thank you for giving it to me. While it wasn’t related to my discussion it did help me hone and develop why I disliked those arguments being used before. It also helps with understanding class relations of artists in general of course.

I’m wondering if you read the article somebody else gave you to read (granted, it is kinda long) because the history of Luddites has nothing to do with being bourgeoisie collaborators and the article does briefly touch on the history of them (I think near the end IIRC). Luddites are commonly misunderstood as anti-industrial or anti-technology, when they were something more like militant resistance to misuse of automation. I did read it, but the essay is as you said. Luddite is used derogatory by most people praising AI for any one who isn’t sold on it, or really any negative opinion. Honestly I apologize for the dramatization you didn’t imply this and I was only reminded of conversations in the past over AI.

I would say we need to distinguish the anti-AI movement that is organizing against data centers or breaking flock cameras as something distinct from the other one, even if there may be some overlap, since one is more related to artists as artisans and the other is more about people seeing direct infrastructural intrusion in their communities.

This is honestly an interesting discussion I’d love to have albeit it goes beyond the original conversation. I believe dividing the movements isn’t in the best interests, but I oppose copyright law. Even when I make exclusive content I leak it to image booru’s and forums around the topic. So I as an artist I know that Copyright isn’t protecting me from anything. Yet when I explain this position it is hard for people to understand and I haven’t pushed it particularly strongly in favor of more glaring contradictions. There’s a thing people in the creative community like to use to refer to AI scraping as stealing their work without permission and while it does suck to see your work used in something you don’t agree with, the idea of “theft” being taken place when most have the contrary opinion for piracy. It seems to follow a line of “Large corps and capitalists are evil and are to be judged by different morals than workers” and I actually think this is more productive for revolutionary agitation. Not every person needs to totally understand the entire Dialectical historical materialist conditions in the relationship to come to the conclusion capitalists need to be stopped. But I digress before taking this too far beyond the initial discussion of its perception and usage for agitation.

My argument has never been that AI is better than in-person organizing. It’s more just a barebones call for people to not dismiss it out of hand and hate it on sight regardless of the form it takes.

Yeah honestly my only intention with the initial statement was to give perspective on the core of community who would not engage with AI. I don’t even think making AI memes would “Taint the movement” as people usually see it on an individual basis.

Using it to agitate is fine if not less effective for the reasons I described in these replies. I would encourage the consequences of its use to be taken into account for the intended audience and message. Because Creative hobbys have intersectionality with racial and sexual minorities, because they usually have reach to an audience, and because of the lives AI effects in some rural communities. These groups are more likely to have a negative association with the imagery (although not guaranteed) and it’s more likely for the meme to have stumbling blocks in relation to those groups. But ultimately I do not believe them to be a majority of people, but a kind of “light house” for content that hits multiple gazes at a time.

This is getting beyond speculation. Anti-AI sentiment has some intersectionality among people you might not expect to inherently be anti-AI. I guess it’s my role to organize and agitate the anti AI crowd, and leave the ones neutral to AI to others.

So yes, that is not the same as saying it is violent, but it is implying that it has associations with violence that need to be ceded to, when said as a reason not to use it in agitprop. Unfortunately art content and creation directly relate to its relationship and engagement with other people. So in this instance I would argue its relation to agitprop is limited by this relationship. I gave an example here: You don’t make a poster of workers wearing fascist like uniforms to encourage them to rise up against capitalists. You manipulate the medium and context to your advantage. I’m trying to say how a medium and its content is related to these relationships, conveys specific messages. There are many who accept that Pepe is part of an alt right movement. Of course not everyone will know this, but those that do will see its use in memes and associate it with alt right. regardless of the attempted portrayal of it. Art exists as a relationship with other art. AI exists, not in a vacuum, but in a relation to the tools that bourgeois use to oppress the working class. Things like; replacement of jobs, surveillance, state propaganda, misinformation, disruptions in education, scamming, etc. Play a distinct role in how AI is perceived. When you are trying to infiltrate a system that is made up of these relations they need to be taken into account for the intended message to be communicated.

I’d argue theres a lot of things that distinguish AI from typical advancements. One of which being the Data centers are incredibly intrusive and nobody wants to be near them. Driving up cost of living, polluting local environment, providing little to no benefit to the region. This is perfect territory to agitate people into disenchantment with Capitalism and it actually has succeed as such in my local area as well as other contacts I have. You’d do far better to agitate on these lines than most AI generated images anyway. While it’s hard to quantify, I believe proper practice like that also agitates more people than paper propaganda.

I call it a honeypot because its much like the large democratic socialist groups in america like DSA being a honey pot for revolutionary movement to fizzle out into reformism, AI ultimately is divisive, impractical for most applications, and actually effects many peoples livelihoods in a variety of ways. Yet there’s a weird insistence among some that if you dislike AI you’re a Luddite-bourgeois collaborator.

AI does paint class lines very clearly, the ones forcing its adoption upon the working class, the heavy investments, the fear over a “investment bubble”, the interfering with local government to push its creation, its use for data collection for surveillance, etc. Hell even conservatives and liberals are taking arms against flock cameras. It’s not like most of us can create surveillance networks that connect with the histories of people that interface with it. I do not argue AI is uniquely “bad” as a tool. But its showing contradictions very acutely and we’d be foolish to not act on this line, just for the sake of using text instead of a pen for making a meme.

I never argued AI was violent. Most of what I’ve been talking about has been anecdotal information to give a viewpoint as to why one would not share it. I still share marxist memes of course. The existence of AI memes did not detract from the propaganda I share and make. I simply did not share the AI work. Much like a professional cook doesn’t serve scraps or freeze “easy make” dishes.

I’m a professional artist, I make art for people I make propaganda. I state this again because this influences many of the relations I have. Sharing other creators content as well. AI, no matter how one wishes it to be, carries a vibe of low-quality and association with capitalists. When attempting to revolutionize the proletariat through art one considers such things in the act of creating it. You don’t make a poster of workers wearing fascist like uniforms to encourage them to rise up against capitalists. You manipulate the medium and context to your advantage.

I still argue that AI is a honeypot for the proletariat. Its ultimately controlled by the bourgeois and we cannot comparably replicate it without already having succeeded at our revolution. It’s not effective for education, agitation, or organizing.

It presents false information, its loathed by the public, and frequently makes errors. It can be used as a tool, but not as a replacement for a proper one in my opinion. While yes you do want to educate the masses, you must be able to reach them to start. Ultimately art is a very superficial and unimportant thing to demand we use AI or lose the revolution. If anything I’d prefer we use the reaction towards AI to further workers protections against capitalists, as most AI movements seem to do. We are only failing to use this to a wider movement rather than just creators who mainly exist outside the relationship between the proletariat and capitalist.

I might be biased, but it’s not that difficult to use premade assets or create your own to make effective propaganda. In any case, use what you will. In the end we both make propaganda for agitation and reach different audiences with it anyway.

I implore you to read what I said.

This is irrelevant except that I’m an artist. I’m not arguing for the “Soul” of human made work. I’m not arguing for copyright I actually despise most forms of copyright law. I’m not arguing that AI “erodes” Artists market share.

Although an argument could be made on my suggestion that the working class has a negative attitude due to the destabilization of their lives as a result of AI. I was referring to audience perception. I’m not arguing for the “Morality” of AI. I’m describing reasons as to why it has a negative reception among working class people. And that the state can make far more effective use of it than any proletarian movement. Once the dictatorship of the proletariat is in place, it’ll be just as useful I’m sure.

The idea that artists are incapable of being revolutionary and are subsumed by the bourgeois in the essay is laughable. Artists, being artisans, do not exploit others for their labor value. While I agree with a fair bit of this article it itself is forming odd ideas over artists that I think will be found to be a mistake. but it goes beyond the discussion here.

Guns can be owned and all processes to maintain it either through theft in systems without gun ownership or by capitalists selling it in systems with gun ownership. They actually are a pretty good example of a tool, but you don’t show up to a housing Union day 1 with an assault rifle. You’d scare people away, unwilling to even engage with you. The whole point is driving engagement and conversation in this case rather than utilizing the gun. It’s not the proper use for the tool.

Using AI you don’t actually own the means to produce it, it requires immense infrastructure to be constructed or taken and held which isn’t super useful for guerilla movements. Not to mention the large amount of resources. I’m sure it would have some use, but art is not it. Art is already fairly easy to make, I’d argue at this time especially. Many people not only value homemade, but poor quality memes. It’s like the whole point behind soyjacks is that they look bad. There is a negative association with AI with a lot of people and those who are able to identify it especially will not engage. Especially artists who you would want…for making higher quality propaganda. Like using AI is all well and good but with proper artists making propaganda its inevitably going to end up more enticing and effective.

I gave my anecdotal experience as an example that others like me exist and probably acted similarly. Hell there’s a ton of trending memes right now about “If your event has AI assets I’m not going to it” trending in liberal spaces. If we tried to advertise a communist event with language that would normally appeal to them but replace it with AI vs art made by a proper artist we would immediately see a difference just from this.

To properly run the experiment you should have had a control and ran several trails over several websites. Instead you assumed the outcome and performed the experiment expecting the outcome and haven’t ran a very convincing argument. Yeah I’m sure AI can be effective at stuff, but as an artist, who works with customers, hobbyists and professionals in a variety of creative activities (DnD, Furries, Anime, books, craftsmen, Fan content, etc. ) AI is not viewed positively in creative spaces. Many communities even have a ban on posting anything AI and if its found out it must be removed from the space. It’s not going to let your meme get very far that way. In creative communities its heavily associated with scamming. It’s much like how you wouldn’t send mass emails to get people to donate to your campaign. Sure you’ll get some people donating, but most people will associate it with spam/scams.

I’m not sure the amount of upvotes it got, I was pretty sure it only got 60 which is about average on this site but it seems to be at 112 and so I’m not sure if I’m misremembering. However another meme which is here; https://lemmygrad.ml/post/12780428 It’s drawn very poorly, it lacks any nuance and just has direct information on the shirts of individuals to convey the message, there’s barely any interesting element to it. Yet it has over 120 upvotes. Because people like it at least to a comparable degree. Not because It’s the best art in the world or particularly revolutionary. From this comparison alone you can find that simply making low quality images, which doesn’t have a chance of alienating the target audience, is already comparable.

None of this stops you, make the AI art if you like. Make as much of it as you are willing. Arguing about quality or effectiveness in reaching an audience is a different burden all together. One I’d argue is not met. I’m not WRONG for disliking it. I’m not incorrect for failing to share it despite others doing such. Its just poor quality in my eyes and I preferred sharing better quality memes with those I know. Especially considering those I know and advertise do, do not like AI. While I’m sure dislike for AI has gained ground among reactionary voices. My dislike, nor any other, is inherently reactionary. I don’t like many designs and tools for being poor quality.

The character designer is a woman 島崎麻里 Mari Shimazaki. However women are not immune to performing misogyny. She drew heavy inspiration from successful female action character designs at the time. It was also her job to work with the director on the final vision of Bayonetta.

While sure she can be empowering for people she ultimately is heavily influenced by misogyny. The empowerment she provides is barely distinguishable from any other Woman in gaming with high sex appeal and unapologetic to it. Examples of this trope in western and japanese are; Laura Croft, Many DC and Marvel characters like; Catwoman, Black widow, Poison Ivy, Panty and stocking, and Harleyquinn etc.

In terms of “Badass female lead” That is a trope that is very very common in both western and japanese media; Xena, Ripley, Ryuko Matoi, Kujo jolyne, Buffy, Katniss, Sara O’conner, Balsa, Most woman characters in DC and Marvel comic books, Kill bill bride, Korra, etc

Ghost in the shell can count for either depending on the version you’re reading/watching. In any case Bayonetta is not new or groundbreaking in having a confident powerful female lead who is also sexy and open about sexuality. It’s kinda a trope. It empowers women’s sexuality, which while important, is usually the only part of a woman that is deemed “acceptable” to be confident in, and even then only to an extant. Honestly there’s many contradictions in misogyny its quite interesting. In any case, anyone can find elements that are empowering in nearly any character. Much like your edit its like asking if the LotR is racist.

Its pretty obviously AI. But I’m an artist for a living so I don’t know how much my expertise plays into that. But I saw it and didn’t care to start beef about it. I didn’t send it to anyone.

In my experience people who are still pro AI at this point are pretty difficult to have a conversation with about it. Both Comrades and non comrades. I usually compare AI to microwave food because yeah…its food but its not great and people usually prefer handmade. Even if we take it as a tool for the proletariat, the problem is that AI as it exists is in the hands of the bourgeois, as such its used to their advantage and not ours. We ultimately can’t create LLM’s to the same extent without a massive amount of organizing that is going to require a government structure. For now, AI is mostly used as a tool by bourgeois to obfuscate truth and reality which are enemies to Marxists. Even if I can tell images that are AI, I wouldn’t be able to tell other uses, and it’d be foolish to assume nobody would believe such images to be reality. Even without knowledge of programming I can see the applications, mods, and games I’ve tried that have AI are extremely buggy.

I see AI as more of an enemy of the Marxist movement than a tool. The working class loathes AI because of its low quality and attempts to use it to destabilize their lives. Both in mass producing evidence for lies and in replacing their jobs and livelihoods. Even If AI is not able to do so, bourgeois are stuck in idealism. Not to mention a good chunk of the infrastructure for AI is for surveilling against resistance to the state.

In any case, the point is. Most people aren’t going to interface with your AI content in the first place. Much like people who see an AI restaurant sign and identify it aren’t going inside in the first place, let alone informing of the creator/user of the AI content. I’m sure you could make agitation propaganda with it that will sell people unaffected by or unable to spot AI. But many people have a negative association with AI and associate it with bourgeois violence. I saw the image, and I did not share it for its low quality and clear AI content. It actually swayed me, a Marxist, to not share the propaganda.

I promise you, the worst most shitty drawn stick figure image will be better, on account of effecting both parties. Those who are fine with AI and those who are not. Most people actually really like poorly created material. It’s somehow both ironic and genuine.

I bolded messages for ease of reading.

Big lemmy doesnt want you to see the truth

I relate to this immensely, I just recently experienced a similar pain.

I recently have been trouble with intense pain in my abdomen slightly right of center and went to the ER multiple times thrashing from the pain, could even feel it through morphine. Cat scan showed nothing but my family history has gallstones so they scheduled a gastro doc.

I’m fuckin pissed at this guy, I was in so much pain I needed to be wheel chaired in because I couldn’t take painkillers before the tests that day and he came in asked me the problem I described it as “pain in my upper stomach area center right” and he tells me my stomach is on my left side and I clarify I meant the belly region below the ribs. He begins poking at several areas and when he hits my ribs i feel intense pain, I almost start crying instantly. He says this is simply a bruised rib, pokes my other organs again and the rib a fucking GAIN. I state the pain this time is too far to the right and before it was more center and he says “I don’t know what you tell you its simply your rib” pokes it twice more and then tells me to take advil and finish the tests scheduled(HIDA and Ultrasound. I mentioned I take oxy for the pain right now and he said “no don’t take painkillers just advil for anti inflammatory” as if it’s no big deal and as if advil is not a mild painkiller and left. When I’m in the HIDA scan they are unable to conduct the test because my gallbladder doesn’t fill (a sign of stones) and he cancels my ultrasound. Fucking for no reason

The next night I went to the ER and got an ultrasound and its fucking gallstones. fucking asshole is lucky my organ wasn’t infected and I wasn’t willing to listen to him. He could’ve gotten someone seriously injured or killed.

However doctors here often ignore women and believe they’re being hysterical. I’ve seen it most my life with all my family members.

I blame it on doctors predominantly being part of upper class families of petite or regular bourgeois and fall for the usual reactionary tendencies. Basically two different things make them think they’re better than you all the time. I trust experts but in this field, and in the imperial core, they’re too often refuse to listen to anything else. The best experts hone on the truth with discussion and collaboration.

I think you may be focusing a bit too much on MAGA. Like yeah its a movement that is enacting change now but workers rights have been continuously stripped even before MAGA was even thought about. The reason why is because the workers have not organized a general strike for their own rights. (caused by a variety of factors; lack of support, distrust of others, union busting, union leaders betraying for capital interests, etc) but ultimately striking DOES hurt companies and demand better concessions within America. Many politicians are deeply invested in companies as well, take for example AI. If we had an organized general strike to prevent the use of AI in a majority of industries, we don’t even need the law to be passed to enforce it. This would tank investments in it and directly hurt capitalists. It would also empower workers to fight for more of their rights.

A disconnect you might be having is this idea that the majority of profit doesn’t come from the workers. While yes most capitalist wealth comes from speculative ventures and investments allowing them to use as collateral on loans. Those are primarily backed BY the excess value that is extracted from the labor force.

**Capitalist **forces workers to make chairs for 1$/chair and sells them for 10$. He uses another 1$ to pay for materials. He pockets 8$. (Lets assume he simply sells 1 a day for ease of math) An Investor buys a portion of his business for 10$, expecting the growth to pay off. So now the Capitalist, uses this as proof of growth and takes a loan for 18$ to buy more materials and pay for more workers. Now he has enough workers and materials to make 10 chairs a day. (10 workers make 1$/chair with 1$ cost to materials per day) Now the companies profits has grown and the Investor’s share, which previously was purchased for 10$ has now grown 10 times that and is worth 100$. Instead of selling, he stays invested and uses it as collateral to take out a 200$ loan.

By exploiting the workers of 90%~ of their true value, the company has enriched the Capitalist, and the Investor, despite them contributing nothing to the process. But has enriched the worker. The Capitalist could hire more workers to grow, or could pay the workers less, or use cheaper materials to make the chair, etc. But ultimately the WORKER is the sole source of value.

It doesn’t matter how complex the chain becomes, the workers are always the ones with all the power and value that is being taken from them. If the workers strike and stop producing chairs, the profit of the company drops, its value drops, the shares drop and the investor and capitalist are unable to pay back their loans.

This is the basic idea, in America there are tons of bail outs for corporations that use government funds to prevent companies from going under but the money used to do this is primarily taxed from people’s pay and spending within the country. It always affects them and the oppression is not just from MAGA but from the ruling bourgeoisie class as a whole. ICE existed way before trump and was STILL killing people in detention and putting families in camps.

Overly simplified and also sorry for using the chair example again i just really like it. Pls anyone send corrections if i got something wrong with the theory.

-edit: formatting issues

Unfortunately imperialist actions like this don’t really “Wake people up” Most people are completely unaffected and the only ones who care are related to the issue or are already involved in anti imperialist messaging and organizing. If you ask anybody they prob have a very middle position of not wanting a war but also hating iran and thinking its justified. very “whats to be done” kinda ppl

The deaths are needless, to truly speak to the masses we ourselves have to go out and speak to the masses and organize.

As an artist I’d love to see suggestions in this thread. The specific recommendations might be different country to country or smaller districts. Something thats difficult for the US is that a lotta people are doing jobs related to tech and there’s not really a single unifying symbol for this. Hammer and sickle to represent farming and manufacturing is possible, and I believe adding a brush branches out to a wider movement.

But finding symbols to speak to the workers as a whole can be difficult with how diverse it all is. Theres so many hyper specialized machines and tools.

When making Icons before I’ve used my states iconography and Black panthers, and queer symbols like the pink triangle. This is extremely important and a good symbol will speak to the audiences you want and pull dedicated people into the movement.

It might be necessary to focus on smaller regions within the US and Unite those before creating broader movements. (OFC whichever is in the best interests of the end goal of revolution at that time.) I can only speak to the US however

coincidentally, Trotsky’s valentine has identical text

I was very lucky and despite growing up in the middle of nowhere, with conservative homophobic parents and going to church 3ish times a week. I just didn’t buy into it, I wasn’t really engaged in politics till I was older but I always carried the golden rule and I thought it was dumb how queer people were treated over something that doesn’t matter. Then I spotted tons of contradictions in the bible that I never talked to people about because I didn’t trust them. I constantly touched onto communism even as like a 10 year old but was constantly shooting myself down with typical rhetoric; “Too bad it doesn’t work” “shame it always leads to dictatorships” etc. Even was harassed by our police chief when he though he was being funny many times and arrested for carrying wooden sword on the side of the road as I was walking over an hour to the park.

The final thing that tipped me though, one of my friends said they were communist and I finally had someone to talk with about it who was actually educated and was able to get me past the self policing stage. it was just a landslide from there, constantly questioning what I thought I knew about everything. Researched Che guevera and Cuba’s revolution got me revolutionary, turned this into a life path for me.

All I needed was someone educated on this stuff to exist. But I got very very lucky by being empathetic and not trusting adults around me early on.