- cross-posted to:
- Technology@programming.dev
- cross-posted to:
- Technology@programming.dev
cross-posted from: https://programming.dev/post/37265606
You must log in or register to comment.
I sidestepped the win11 artificial requirements, and things are great.
Hot take here, but I think both Linux and Windows suck. I’m just picking the poison most suited to my needs on each computer
This is basic life philosophy. Nothing is perfect, but you can choose which problems you want to deal with. Linux presents the least amount of struggle to fixing the problems it gives me, so I use Linux everywhere.
For me, linux only presented a few problems as the beginning, but became rock stable with time. I don’t even remember the last time I had to stop my work to deal with issues in my pc
I sidestepped to Mint. Sorry, Microsoft, your shit’s untenable and disappointing.
I did too on my laptop but on pc I’ll probably just stick with windows 10, I’d rather deal with security vulnerabilities then ai in my OS
Proton’s good, by the way. If gaming is holding you back, at least.
so good that i actually get more fps than i did so on windows
I tried but I should probably figure out how proton works and try that
Proton is integrated with the Steam app in Linux, so usually you just install the game and then run it from Steam and it just works in Linux even though it’s a Windows game, without you having to know anything about Proton.
Similarly you can use something like Lutris or Heroic which does the same for Wine and game stores like GOG (it’s even integrated with the store and downloads the game for you, same as the Steam app does for the Steam store).
For some games you might have to learn enough to tweak settings, though for Steam and Proton that’s often just changing the Proton version you’re using for a game in its game launch settings in Steam, which is hardly complicated.
The need to really understand what’s under the hood is generally only when leaving these standard paths: for example if you’re trying to run a pirated version of a game (which might even be for perfectly legit reasons: for example one of my Steam games won’t run in Linux no matter what I do, but the pirated version works fine, probably because of the DRM in the official version) or some old obscure game CD you have around, as the scripts in Steam, Lutris or Heroic that silently configure Proton/Wine correctly for a game might not at all exist for those unofficial or older installers.
Yeah that last paragraph really hit the nail as to why I struggle with Linux gaming, especially playing games I downloaded off itchio too
Thanks for your advice though it is appreciated
If you’re willing to learn to use an atomic distro (meaning you can’t install stuff the normal way and the OS filesystem is read only), Bazzite is fantastic, has steam and proton pre installed and has been working amazing for me for a few months so far.
Yeah the thing is alot of the games I want to play arnt on steam so sadly that wouldn’t work out well for me, thanks for the suggestion though
You can normally add it to steam to see if proton will work, or if not, you could use heroic, lutris, or bottles, although normally if it doesnt work under proton and there isn’t a premade wine prefix in lutris or heroic, it will take some tinkering.
Which games are you worried about?
Pirated games or games downloaded off itchio mostly
Look into https://0patch.com/
Keeps you secure without having to pay Microsoft another red cent
If you must use windows, and might want to upgrade to 11, lets say, for certain games, this project Flyoobe will help create a windows 11 install without all that bloat and ai
Thank you the link is much appreciated :D
But admit one of my major grips with windows 11 is it’s extremely ugly looking, and I don’t really think there is any way to remedy that
You can replace the default windows UI with an alternative shell like Open Shell (here’s a list). Not sure how reliable this works.
I would recommend for people not to install W11 just for a tiny handful of games. Most work on Linux. If they want to specifically add things to make it only work on Windows you shouldn’t reward them by following along. Find better games to play.
The longer people play along with their game the longer they try to force people onto Windows. Until they are forced to support Linux you shouldn’t support them.
Yeah, well… When the kids want to play Valorant with their friends, it is hard to tell them that thats too bad, because they dont support Linux.
What if they had an Xbox and their friends were playing a PS exclusive game? Would you buy them the new console just so they can play that one game, or would you tell them that sucks but they can try to convince their friends to play a game that supports their system?
Wat? They already have a PC, Im not buying them anything, Im just not cutting away the thing that enables them to play certain games with their friends.
Sure, if it doesn’t cost anything and you aren’t giving anything up, fine. Keep doing what you’re doing. I don’t care. If you’re buying a game, reconsider. If you’re buying an OS, reconsider. If you are tired of having an OS that is literally malware that you don’t control and that is constantly advertising and spying on you, reconsider.
My point of the console example was that no, you won’t just put up with anything just to keep up. Have some boundaries. Stop just letting them push you around. The more you allow it the more they’ll do it. Once people actually start advocating for what’s best for them rather than what a corporation allows them to do then things will improve.
Thats a noble principle but it doesn’t really work when the game is an older or somewhat obscure one without much developer support left. Especially online games that have some fuckery preventing them from running via proton/wine.
I know it’s more of an edge case, but theres dozens of us holding onto some shitty 20-year old MMOs
Take their ESU extension to get one last year of W10 update. At least it gets you time to see if you can migrate on linux maybe.
I’m planning on moving to the IoT edition of windows 10 when support ends. It’s supported till 2032. Hopefully by then the professional apps I need will be sorted out on Linux.
I did the same and using Windows at work is slowly becoming unbearable.
That is what I am planning on doing as well. I am not going to install their ad-, bloat- and surveillance-ware.
Same! Even converted a couple of Surface tablets over as well. Id like to try Pop Linux on one of them just to see, but can’t get em to boot from USB.
Me too? I just switched a few days ago and I’m shocked how easy things have been.
Aside from some generic brand hardware I’ve got, most stuff just works. Main issue is not being able to use my Xbox controller wirelessly at the moment.
Get a 8bitdo wireless adapter, it’s better then native Windows support as well.
Bluetooth connect it then steam will automatically use steam input I believe.
How much of this is people not wanting to upgrade vs not being able to upgrade because their PC isn’t supported?
I’m a sys admin in the public sector and the hardware requirements of W11 are a great blessing. I couldn’t have convinced thousands of workers to switch to Linux and get used to another GUI but this forces it on us because there simply is no money to replace all that hardware. Rolling out Mint clients and between this and mobile operating systems Microsoft is finally losing its monopoly on the OS market.
I have been called by friends, family friends, and their friends to help with this and so many have hardware that is not supported, and some are not able to afford a new PC right now. That’s my limited and personal experience about this.
I have reservations about installing Linux Mint/other for these people because I don’t have time to help right now and you do need sometimes help if you are slightly tech aware but not enough to be able to troubleshoot yourself or search for right info. For folks who barely touch any settings and just use it for docs + web it’s easy, but for others not always.
Microsoft is such an ass for doing this.
You can just bypass those hardware requirements fairly easily. There are a bunch of guides out there.
Here’s one from Tom’s Hardware. https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/bypass-windows-11-tpm-requirement
It even shows how to make a install media that doesn’t require the checks so you can just install it no issue.
Though fair warning that some of those requirements they have are good for security purposes so your installs may not be as secure without them.
Win 11 is still pretty ass though and bloated to hell. I instead got myself a LTSC version of Win10 instead which will get updates until 2032 or something like that. That gives me enough time to figure out if I want to install Linux or IDK I’ll just die before that, either one is fine.
You can just bypass those hardware requirements fairly easily.
Microsoft specifically warns people not to bypass Windows 11 requirements:
Installing Windows 11 on a device that doesn’t meet Windows 11 minimum system requirements isn’t recommended. If Windows 11 is installed on ineligible hardware, your device won’t receive support from Microsoft, and you should be comfortable assuming the risk of running into compatibility issues.
Devices that don’t meet these system requirements might malfunction due to compatibility or other issues. Additionally, these devices aren’t guaranteed to receive updates, including but not limited to security updates.
Thanks for the links. I recall reading that installing windows 11 with bypasses might break after some future update? I just didn’t want to offer a solution that might cause issues as well.
For some linux was a good option, but for some I said you can either get a new computer or pay for the LTSC. Thankfully I was able to find some affordable win11 compatible laptops for their usecases.
Go visit massgraves.dev and run the ESU patch; that’ll get them another 3 years of security patching in W10.
That’s useful, thanks for the recommendation! I’ll have to check this out. Especially nice for those who can’t afford new PC’s atm.
Thank you, I was already familiar with massgrave.dev, but didn’t realise they offered this patch! Very handy!
This was a really dumb idea to do just before tariffs
Makes me miss windows 7.
I ran vista from release, never had any probmems with it. Admittedly it did help that I ran it on a brand new pc. Does show that the problem wasn’t the os but rather their aggressive push to get it on PCs that weren’t suitable
Windows 7 was peak. I still miss it.
It’s simply the best Windows. Like, it’s still not as good as Linux for anything a bit complex, but at least it’s actually usable, fast, doesn’t feature ads in the start menu, doesn’t have built-in AI shitware, and has a decent customization capability.
Aero was the prettiest UI, I held onto Win7 because of it until EOL 😢
Read the room, Microsoft.
It convinced me to ditch dual booting and to go full Linux
Same, now I have Win 11 in a VM but when I boot it I just apply Windows updates so I am booting it much less frequently now.
Why not just use bottle or wine?
I just went straight to Mint as I had another PC running W11, which I rarely used. And then when I had to use it, W11 would always force me to download a ton of updates that had no positive effects on the PC. After dealing with this about 5 times, I just converted that W11 PC to Mint too, so I’m 100% Windows free now.
I hope you have a good lamp then
You will be shocked to learn that you can upgrade, for free, to Windows 12. It’s called Linux.
I’d go for Lunix, if the software I need for work would I run on it. Thinking about keeping Win 10 on a separate disk, since my laptop is not eligible for Win 11.
not trying to be one of those guys but trying to be helpful. What software for work do you need that won’t work on a linux distro?
I mean wine/winetricks is pretty much to the point now where you can simply download an .exe or whatever, double click it, and it’ll launch. I do this for several Windows only programs I have and they all work. And the thing with the Linux community is that there’s always SOMEONE that will insist on getting the most obscure drivers working on it. I once had this dongle from like the early 2000s that would allow you to plug PSX and PS2 memory cards into it. I thought “yeah I’d like to use this again, no way it’ll work on linux” and sure enough someone had actually made the drivers for it. I think it’s only me and the guy who made the driver that actually use the thing.
Thank you for the reply. I need to run Rhino 8, and apparently it doesn’t reliably work through wine. It’s my main software I use professionally, and moving to something like Blender is unfortunately not an option.
would this work? https://github.com/cryinkfly/Rhinoceros-3D-for-Linux
I’m one of the few whose laptop is about 10 years old so it needs replacing. Most likely a new laptop will be preloaded with windows 11. Do they sell laptops pre-loaded with Linux?
Installing linux yourself is dead easy. I would just buy a Windows laptop and wipe the drive
Depending on your budget, there’s the Framework laptops.
Edit: I want to add… What I did, was go to an opshop, get a laptop there, and wipe it for Linux. I got a decent laptop at a decent price, saved a little on ewaste for the world, helped a local opshop make a little money, and not contributed to any corpo greed.
You can get a laptop with no OS preinstalled just about everywhere.
There are some companies that sell hardware with Linux pre-installed. The bigger companies that do are Dell and Lenovo. Maybe some others I am not aware of. If you want to support a smaller company that also sells Linux preinstalled, you should look into System76 and Framework. I would not be surprised if there are others as well.
If you are feeling up to it, I think it’s a great idea to watch some videos regarding installing a Linux distribution on your own and doing it that way. It isn’t very difficult (You may have to adjust some BIOS settings for example) and many distributions guide you in keeping a windows install and Linux install at the same time dual boot style if you want a back up Windows install. It will be a good first step in learning a little about how Linux works so you can figure out any issues more easily if they happen to come up.
I switched to Linux primarily last year, and other than some distro hopping to find my right fit, I haven’t looked back and I don’t plan on it.
eBay has tons of off-lease/refurbished computers for pennies on the dollar. Hard format the drive, install your distro, and you’re off and running.
System76 has laptops with Pop OS
My elderly parents got the “your computer cannot be upgraded” and my somewhat tech-litterate mom asked me to move them to Linux.
Microsoft should’ve realised at some point that the only thing most people need today is a computer that can run a web browser and connect to a printer.
I swear to Torvalds, if the amount of old ladies using Linux because their Fedi relatives installed it on their laptops is accurate we are in the middle of an major demographic crisis.
For every one, there’s the younger relatively who installed it for them, so things are in perfect balance in the end.
the only thing most people need today is a computer that can run a web browser and connect to a printer.
I cannot the life of me get my Linux laptop to use my fucking Canon WiFi printer. It detects the printer, says it’s connected, but it simply will not send a print job to it. Windows, iOS and android all use it just fine…but this fucking Linux machine just won’t, I’ve spent hours fiddling with drivers and nothing works, it’s infuriating!
Ironically my fedora computer connected out of the box, but my wife’s windows laptop breaks the printer each time it tries to connect.
If there’s a firmware update available I have to manually update the printer firmware after her computer tries to print.
Mac and Linux work fine 100% of the time.
Yeah that sounds bad :/ All Brother here with no issues. Esp. Linux Mint just autodetects and sets everything up directly.
Mint detected my Brother but nothing could print until I downloaded a driver from Brother’s website. Buttery smooth since.
We use a Canon at work, behind a print server called UniPrint, or some shit. I figured out how to use it to print from a USB drive long before I finally caved and mailed the guy who maintains it to ask how to get my KDE Neom machine to successfully send a print job. I figured out how to see it, I could check the toner levels, but I could not send a print.
Works now, because he changed a setting.
Bastard printers.
I’ve been trying to get my MIL’s printer working forever.
I can get mine to speak to my shitberg printer, but I went and bought bootleg ink cartridges and I have a half-day printer battle on my to do list to reset the ink levels and force the printer to accept non-HP ink into its heart.
Can u tell ur model of printer maybe I can help I had fight a bit with canon printer too a bit but in the end it started working
I’d have to look at it when I get home, I have no clue off the top of my head.
It wasn’t canon in my case, but I found with other network printers on Linux that not bothering with “auto finding” and just putting the IP address in manually (give fixed devices fixed IPs on your router to make this kind of thing easier). Most desktop environments have a printer tool that should allow manually adding a printer.
I have to say with the work provided HP PoS I last had, it was equally as difficult to get windows to talk to it, to be fair.
Yeah I’ve tried the route of manually inputting a static IP, it will connect to the printer but it still fails to send jobs to the printer. I’ve resigned to just accepting that it’s incapable of WiFi printing with the HW I have, so I send documents to other devices for printing.
Try printer firmware update?
Eh, my in-laws have the same problem… but on windows
Let me tell you:
I’ve been using Linux exclusively since ~2010 and moved my mum over back when XP got canned. Printers always have been and still are the bane of my existence. From what I know from other people working in IT printers are always bad, however of course the driver support situation in Linux is so much worse. My mum used to have a Samsung mfp that would print in Linux (most of the time) but I could not for the life of me figure out how to get it to scan reliably. In the end I’ve set her up with a dual boot with a simple “click here to switch to Windows” button so she could scan in there (saving the scans to a NAS)
From my experience printers mostly either work or don’t work in Linux. If you are looking for a new printer I’ve only had food experiences with Brother. If you already have a printer and it’s not working right I can recommend sxouring through forums for that one wisdom of the ancients that can help (and possibly sacrificing a goat)
I bow also have a Canon printer (it was a gift) and with the official Linux drivers it worked for years. Recently it just wouldn’t print from Linux anymore till I switched the drivers to the generic “Guteprint” now it’s printing fine again …
Tl;dr: printers are evil and Linux drivers are sometimes making them worse
My old printer got better support on linux than modern windows. HP has long since took the driver off their website.
Funny how Kaspersky thinks what it comes down to are people who are afraid of change, when there’s also just people who are also not too happy with the direction Microsoft is taking their OS. And then there’s the fact that their stats only come from users who still use Kaspersky, which might be mostly businesses, instead of the average joe, skewing the data.
I moved to a linux-only system for about 5 years now, and it’s been great, as a daily-driver and a learning experience as well. Microsoft does so much hand-holding that it’s own users are not expected to care about security and privacy.
Wait…
Excluding half of the active PCs or so from upgrade due to arbitrary hardware constraints didn’t push upgrading?
How can this be??? 😯🫢What actually is the hardware requirement here?
First major requirement is the presence of a recent TPM module, which is absolutely not required performance-wise, but only for DRM-reasons (and read that as “Digital Restriction Management”).
Second even more arbitrary one is that they excluded all CPUs before at least Coffee Lake generation. Perhaps half of the PC stuff people I know to be running at home is still from the mid-2010s, so practically completely pre-Coffee-Lake.
And the IT infrastructure of the e.g. the German executive government branches is on average probably more in the range of 15 years old. A surprising lot of that isn’t even fully switched to Windows 10 yet… (hey, at least we are increasingly migrating away from Telefax…!)TPM is a good ideas but hardly seems like a requirement.
Microsoft should just tell OEMs they can’t sell windows pre installed without TPM hardware.
I agree that would have been the sensible way to go… Together with an “Install at your own risk” message when trying to upgrade a PC containing an older CPU…
I really don’t know what their reasoning is to enforce the requirements so hard for everyone.
It’s not “arbitrary” I’d say. It’s part of a long term plan to probably push a fully trusted platform. Yes, so they can ID you by hardware etc but also lock down driver installs and maybe even software installs one day.
That’s exactly what arbitrary is. It’s not for a good reason, it’s so they can push bullshit later. The limitations were chosen arbitrarily because they’re not real limitations, they’re entirely imposed by a Microsoft for their own ends. A non-arbitrary limitation is like minimum graphics card requirements for a game - won’t run without it. What do you think arbitrary means?
Well, it’s for a good reason in their view. Also, pretty much everyone here is not the normal computer user. The normal computer user is only dimly aware they use something called windows. The use a web browser and perhaps 3 other programs on their PC. They’re going to be happy when they’re told that having a walled garden improves their computer’s security.
We are the minority.
No, they claim it is for a good reason to excuse it so they can get away with all the stuff they want later whilst hopefully (from their perspective) making more profit now. It’s the thin end of a wedge.
Stop defending corporations for anti-consumer behaviour. You do realise that YOU are a consumer as well, right?
You are misunderstanding their point. “Good reason” doesnt mean ethically good, it means there is a sound logical connection between the action they are taking and the outcome they want to happen. In that case Microsoft does have good reason to push trusted hardware, in the same way as a bank robber has good reason to buy a face mask.
I really feel like you should read my comment more carefully. I’m not defending them. I’m describing their rationale. My very last sentence should make clear I am not one of the normal users that will be happy and fine with this. I’m typing this, on Linux, right now.
Normal people don’t care, and they would be happy with the thin veil of extra security they will gain (and be told they’re going to gain), in exactly the same way the sales of the top tier mobile phones when they’re boot locked and sideload locked will not dip in any meaningful way.
This is why I hoard old computers
If they just sold a very simple lightweight barebone version of Win 10 for 30-40 usd with regular security updates for the next 200 years, they could make so much money for eternity. Just sell those Apps/Widgets as additional paid apps, that is all you need.
But the app/widget spyware is what they want you to run.
True
Time to upgrade to Linux.
Cool site! Didn’t know it existed, and I was pleased to see that there are people out there willing to “fingers on the keyboard” assist those who want to switch but don’t know how.
Microsoft’s new OS has never been a concern of mine. I still have a windows XP, Vista, and windows 7 PC’s. They all work fine but zero security updates of course. You don’t need to upgrade your OS and most people will simply just keep windows 10 instead up buying a new computer.
I’m just going to setup dual boot with linux since i have some modding and custom software that only works on windows.
