Actually I looked up the real story of Johnny Appleseed and he was more about making hard cider and selling land. 🙃
In Finland there is this law called jokamiehenoikeudet. Roughly translates into “everymans rights”
Everymans rights allow everyone to enjoy nature in regardless of who owns the land as long as it is done responsibly and without causing harm or disturbance. These rights apply to all people, including visitors.
You are allowed to: Walk, ski, and cycle freely in forests, fields, and other natural areas (as long as you do not damage crops or do it on somebodys yard). Camp temporarily on uncultivated land. Pick wild berries, mushrooms, and flowers (aslong as they are not protected.) Swim, row, and use waterways freely.
But you cant: Cause damage to nature, animals, or property. Disturb residents or invade privacy. Light open fires without the landowner’s permission. Drive motor vehicles off-road without permission. Harm protected species or take branches, bark, or timber from living trees.
So atleast in Finland if the fruit tree is not on anybodys yard or planted for a business use, you can eat the fruit and its not a crime.
It’s all of Northern Europe, not Finland especially.
It’s called “the right to roam” in English.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam
All Nordics, Scotland, and even some more central European countries like Switzerland and Czech Republic have variations of it.
And it is not the reason we don’t plant fruit trees in cities. The reason we don’t plant fruit trees in cities is theyre messy as fuck.
Just think of how often you see buckets of apples labeled “omenoita ilmaseksi!” in the fall. Because people want to clean up their yards of all the rotten apples. Imagine that on every sidewalk.
not only are there way more people in a city to take the fruit, there are also way less insects so there would be much less fruit
Thats cool. I did know Sweden and Norway had something similiar, but did not know Scotland and the others. I did not bring those up, as i dont know how similiar they are.
Also i did not say anything that anybody should be planting apple trees anywhere. I was just saying what Freedom to roam is in Finland as i tought it was somehow revelant to the post.
Just think of how often you see buckets of apples labeled “omenoita ilmaseksi!” in the fall.
Im thinkin really hard, but i dont think i have ever seen sign that says that, but every now and then when there is good year my relatives tell me to come and pick the ones they cant bother to juice or make jelly.
Again, im not saying cities should be planting fruit trees, but just for an discussion i am going to argue for it.
I think you are somewhat hyperboling the messines of the trees. Of course if every single road side is covered with fruit trees its messy, but one or two trees in a public park could very well be nice. Even if nobody would eat any apples and they all would drop in the ground it would take what, an hour for city worker to clean it up. Cityworkers spends allready days on every autum cleaning leafs and redying the other plants for the winter. Few man hours in a year for keeping the trees well cut and cleaning any leftover fruits would not effect any city budgetwise.
I will also argue pre-emptivelly that eaten apple cores would not be big problem either. Atleast where i live, people bring their own snacks to the parks and they usually dont leave any garbage behind as long as there are enough thras cans nearby. Another argument could also be that it does not have to be messy plants. Where i live there are red- and blackcurrant bushes in park. I have also seen walnut trees in many countries (but as a dog owner i have to say in real life im against those, and as far trees go they are not really that clean trees) Also there are few towns here i know that has free community gardes, where city offers the tools and spaces and people can grow potatoes, carrots, peas or what ever they want aslongs as they being their seeds (and its not illegal). I would say in areas like those apple or pear tree would fit nicely.
If i wanted to argue against the fruit trees in public i would rather argue that many of them are heavy pollinators and especially in autum they will attract lots of bees and wasps. Both pollen and stinging insects at public places are bad for allergic people.
Fun historical fact: Those apples were not for eating, they were for making hard cider.
NTA. Your park, your rules
My garden, or what’s left of it, is full of insects stealing it.
Ants can steal more than 10x their body weight in one go.
CALL THE COPS!!!
especially if those ants are black
/s it is so sad I have to specify a sarcasm tag here.
Ants see it as legitimate salvage and will take you to court over it. Not worth the hassle tbh.
Industrious as fuck, but no sense of other people’s boundaries.
Over here it’s small mammals and birds that get most of the yard tree fruit.
Let me introduce you to my neighbor Mr. Groundhog.
iirc Johnny Appleseed spread seeds so people could make alcoholic cider
You can’t take the seed of a tasty apple, plant it and expect the tree to have similarly tasting apples. If you want to duplicate a tree, you need to take a twig and graft it on top of an existing tree.
Source: MinuteEarth on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIajCqcvTg8)
When grafting, do you need to remove any of the original branches? Or will the tree grow two different types of apples? Or some kind of hybrid?
Any branches you don’t remove will still be the original tree. You can have a single tree that yields multiple varieties of apples.
Costco was selling fruit trees with multiple different fruits in it a few years ago. One cherry tree has 4 different cherries in it.
If I had a hard i would have bought one and put it in my yard
Grafting?
Take a small branch of a tree you like, splice it using a technique, take a small young tree of same type but different variety, splice it, attach branch of variety you like, seal. Nurture it, and the branch uses the donor tree to pull up nutrients and water, and the branch then grows into a whole new tree. It’s cloning, but grafting helps it move faster and without as much risk.
They were responding to the original version of my comment where I asked what the technique was called.
Grafting?
They’re also soil, water and other conditions. Doubt a tree planted on a city is going to have the nutrients to give you tasty fruits
Enter Andernach – the edible town
There are plenty of fruit trees around towns here(eastern Europe).
And they do produce fruit. Pollution around major roads and things like dumpsters are a problem, but the trees are perfectly capable of producing tasty fruit.
Well, you can just buy apple trees from a nursery, it’s what farmers do.
Yes but that’s because the nursery has already grafted the branches of a known-to-be-tasty cultivar onto that tree before putting it up for sale.
Yeah, I’d just rather pay someone who knows what they’re doing for it rather than fuck it up over and over again on my own
I love that grafting is real and it works. It always seems like straight scifi to me.
The real marvels are the ones where they graft apples, oranges, etc together. Expensive as hell and they don’t survive as long though.
There’s an artist who did that, and created a series of Trees of 40 Fruit!
I think the trick is that it works better the more closely related the trees are. These use only stone fruits.
Apple seeds have like a one in 10k chance of producing a sweet apple that is nearly as good as what else is on the market, and like one in 100k for it to be better. Every other one comes out to a nearly inedible crab apple.
Always seemed like a cool hobby to me if I somehow became rich. It’s like a gamble that is just as much your time, as it is your money.
I don’t know if that is really true. Yes apples will be different to the parent tree but I often eat from roadside apple trees which grew from discarded apple cores and plenty taste fine.
Yes I do have my favourite apple trees. Would be nice to get a press sometime tbh. Free cider! Maybe even calvados?
Then your lucky. I know someone who has an apple tree that’s semi edible (most of the apples finish with a slight sweetness). I also know dozens of people whose apples are only really useful for cider. Its all technically edible if your tongue can handle the acidity and astringency.
Get a press, cider making is fun. Don’t try to use a Jack Lallane juicer to feed through a couple bushells… Also don’t ask me how I know that.
Its tempting but they are not exactly cheap. Everything online that says “cheap and easy” clearly hasn’t looked at the price of timber lately, or has a very different idea to me as to what cheap means. Often using tools I don’t have too which doesn’t help. Normal people don’t have an entire workshop in their house.
Home depot has a small starter one for <50 near me that would probably be adequate if your not processing multiple bushells every year.
What sort of volume is reasonable for a small press? UK, never used bushells as a unit of measurement. Usually when they are growing I can go out on my bike and fill the bags on my bike each time I go out.
Is dedicated equipment for crushing them worth getting or just beat them to a pulp in a bucket or something?
they are still good for apple pies though.
yeah but if you grow an apple tree with crappy fruit you can saw off branches and graft good branches from a good tree onto it so that it produces good apples, that is how nearly all apple orchards are
You can graft individual branches? :O
You can graft different kinds of fruit as well so the tree can have some branches with one variety and different branches with another.
Wait a minute
Are you telling me a tree can produce different types of fruit? Am I reading that right? A SINGLE tree???
What in the frankenstein bullshit is that???
Yes, most commonly just different varieties of a fruit, but sometimes completely different fruits. You can have apples and pears, plums, you name it.
They can be quite pretty because the different branches will blossom and bear fruit at different times.
WHAT THE HELL
peach, plum and cherry get along well
Yes, it can literally be done. Works best if the tree species are closely related. However, you can also get trees from different genus working together, so enjoy pears on an apple tree
The seeds Johnny Appleseed used were sour and tasted like shit. They were used for making hard cider. No kids would eat them.
Cider production requires very sweet apples, because you’re looking for sugar.
It’s not a debate. This is just you being absolutely wrong about something, but being too stupid to do like 5 minutes of research before posting it.
In my mom’s hometown there are fruit trees literally everywhere. Everyone and their dog has them. The public areas have them. The forests have them. There are fruit all over the ground. Nobody ‘steals’ or gathers to sell. They make alcohol and share it with anyone that comes within line of sight like pokemon trainers forcing you to battle. Also all of the kids are sick of eating the fruit but if they feel like eating any they don’t even have to pick it themselves because all the parents and grandparents will pick wash and even cut up the fruit and serve it on a platter with even the slightest hint of interest. I ate a lot of plums and pears and drank a fuckload of brandy.
What’s the town? You can’t just promise a bounty of food and not name-drop it.
Sounds like somewhere in the Balkans.
100% agree with this. Plums, pears, and brandy - I’d bet Serbia or Bulgaria, maaaaybe Bosnia.
I’m more interested in the moonshine battles. I don’t think I can outdrink small town shiners but by jove I’ll give it a shot.
For legal reasons I would rather not give the location of the blackberry moonshine still that doesn’t exist in my shed and can’t be bought or made for under £50.
Your Johnny Appleseed comment reminded me of my favorite movie musical, Paint Your Wagon (1969) with Clint Eastwood and Lee Marvin. And, yes, they both sing!
Elizabeth: Did you know that the Fenty’s had an apple farm back in Pennsylvania?
Ben Rumson: Apple jack, huh?
Mr. Fenty: No, sir, we did not make apple jack.
Ben Rumson: Then, what did you grow the apples for?
Mr. Fenty: Mr. Rumson, do you think that everything that comes out of the earth should be used to make liquor?
Ben Rumson: Whenever possible, yes.
Gonna paint our wagon
gonna paint it good
We ain’t braggin’
We’re gonna coat that wood!Gonna paint your wagon
Gonna paint it fiiine
Gonna use oil-based paint
Cause the wood is pīíîine
Ponderoooooosa pine
Correct, it was a land grab scam based on the laws of the time.
IIRC, if he planted trees it was then his land because he was using it, so he could then sell it for actual money. This was after the military had killed or chased out the natives who lived on it, of course.
Sorry for the YouTube link, if anyone can find it hosted elsewhere let me know I’ll update my post.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=aD_Tyj-wbC4
Johnny never really profited. By all accounts he was likely neurodivergent and Apple Trees were his special interest. His labor and efforts to educate others was leveraged by others to snatch land up and proof of improvement to the land for homesteading.
The US government was absolutely at fault for the genocide of indigenous peoples. But Johnny was at worse a useful idiot and at best a roving horticulturist who wasn’t very good at owning land.
Useful idiot or not, the fact is, according to The Technician at least, he was a successful businessman, so somebody is wrong here.
I’m too old and cynical to believe that it wasn’t a scam, ND or not, and that doesn’t absolve him from complicity.
Do you have any sources that support your argument?
C’mon man, he’s already established that he’s old! Once you reach a certain age, facts don’t matter, just fee-fees.
Probably, but I don’t care enough to look them up.
Factoids aren’t my special interest any more since I became disabled.
You’ll go about spouting things as if they are facts, and when questioned you simply hand-wave them away as if checks comments “being old” and “being disabled” are in any way supporting your point.
You sound exactly like my MAGA in-laws.
I can see you don’t come from a very smart family then.
At some point you’ll realize that not every little thing you say needs a citation because some kid on the internet gets his panties in a twist.
Calm down, buddy, you’re gonna pop a blood vessel.
Ah, ad hominem attacks because you can’t counter anyone’s points.
I see my maga boomer comment was spot on.
If you aren’t going to find sources to backup your nonsense then please just keep it to yourself.
No.
Alright well no one wants to hear it so idk what you hope to accomplish.
Then why are you caring enough to continue being a nuisance?
Either you have something of substance to say on the matter, or you shut up and listen what people that have can tell you, arrogant old man.
I’m both easily entertained and easily amused.
And you guys are apparently so thin-skinned you can’t help being reactive little bunnies.
Let me elaborate, because your ego-driven brain didn’t register what i said.
You’re not laughing at my expense, you’re laughing while shitting your own pants. I pointed that out, and now you’re saying that you’re feeling amused because of how thin-skinned i am.
The only thing i feel, is distaste and resentment towards your inability to accept the fact that you’re wrong at something as minor, your pathetic attempts to heal your wounded ego after, and your supposed tendency to make yourself feel good at the expense of others.
The last one is especially ironic considering that you seem to be far left.
more like johnny crappleseed amirite?
IIRC
You don’t recall correctly, and I have no idea where you got that information. Appleseed actually was a successful businessman who bought some land where he planted tree nurseries, owning about 1200 acres (~5 km2), but by all accounts he was a genuinely good person, and I’ve never heard what you’re saying (and not substantiating) that he did.
Dude, who knows where I saw it but Honest Opinion says he’s a useful idiot and you’re saying he’s a successful businessman who bought land, completely ignoring the whole homestead laws of the day.
I’m too old and cynical to buy “he was a good person” in the US during that time frame. Sorry, not gonna happen.
Ah but you see, their comment has the message of “capitalism bad”, so it doesn’t really matter if what they wrote is true.
I’d go even further and say that this is more generic than capitalism/anticapitalism wish fulfillment. It’s a desire to speak truth to power but without any of the effort or sincere curiosity to learn what that truth is. To have that truth condensed onto a smaller and smaller spoon until you don’t even realize you’re being spoonfed at all is the ideal.
And you really think that at 62 I’m gonna go track down a historical factoid to satisfy the gatekeeping of a LEMMY sub?
HAHAHAHAHA
Shit, man, pull the other one.
And yes, capitalism IS bad and people back then were just as horrible as people today. You’ll get it if you survive to my age.
And you really think that at 62 I’m gonna go track down a historical factoid to satisfy the gatekeeping of a LEMMY sub?
Well hey, as a wise person once said:
Too damn many stupid people in this world.
Good citation. That guy is a genius.
He’s also taking enough gabbapentin to stun a horse so his memory isn’t super great.
Good cook though.
“I’m too old to care if what I say is true” what age do I get to just start saying stuff and act like other people are the problem when they call me out on pulling shit out of my ass and presenting it as fact?
- You’ve still got a lot to learn, son.
Well, back in my 20s a coworker forgave me for leaning Democrat because “if you’re a Republican in your 20s you have no heart. If you’re a Democrat in your 30s you have no brain.”
So, I’d say never. Reality matters at all ages. Well, until you have deep dementia. At that point, enjoy the invisible angels that help you use the restroom. You need all the help you can get. (Source: my mom on the occasions of caring for my grandmother)
Yes, capitalism bad, but uhhhhh
You’ll get it if you survive to my age.
OK boomer
Not quite, but close.
Still doesn’t mean capitalism isn’t evil, dumbass.
popcorn
Share. I love tweaking these guys noses.
If it smells like shit in one place, it’s probably shit. If it smells like shit everywhere, it’s time to check your shoe.
Citation [21]“Johnny Appleseed, Orchardist,” prepared by the staff of the Public Library of Fort Wayne and Allen Couth, November 1952, page 26
Here, I took the trouble for you. He was not, by any accounts, a good business man.
Please avoid spreading disinformation. This isn’t facebook.
He was not, by any accounts, a good business man.
Hey, that wasn’t me, that was another guy. I was just relaying his statement. You can check his citation if you want.
Please avoid spreading disinformation.
It’s a meaningless factoid, bro. Relax.
He was not, by any accounts, a good business man.
HAHAHAHAHAHA
Damn, that’s the funniest thing I’ve seen today.
What’s the goal here? Agitate people on line for fun?
You’re not arguing in good faith. You tell people that you are in your sixties and disabled, as if that’s excuse for your behavior. You add no context or sources. What’re you looking to get out of engaging in a public forum? What does lemmy.world get you that Facebook does not?
This is a dumb take.
Smarter than you. lol
I thought he made his name by basically being a consultant and helping others plant their trees. The law at the time was you had to grow X number of apple trees and the land was yours. That was because apple trees take multiple years to grow so it proved you were taking care of the land for multiple years.
“Consulatant”: “Hey guys here’s a way to lay claim to government land taken from the natives. Just plant a bunch of crabapple seeds like I did and you can claim to be “working the land”, too.”
I’m not buying any good intentions here, sorry.
Did I say good intentions? Consultants get paid for their work.
And I’m sure you think this means something.
There are no good capitalists comrade.
Cool story bro
Yeah, Appleseed would generally move ahead of pioneers and start nurseries on land he thought would be settled. It wasn’t some land shakedown scam like the original comment is implying; it was a very useful service that Appleseed would even forego payment for to those who couldn’t afford it. Apples were a dietary staple on the frontier, often used for bartering, and sometimes, as you said, you even legally needed an orchard.
Well it was useful for the pioneers, however you have to acknowledge the massive genocide that was committed to make that land “available” to those same “pioneers”.
Apples were a dietary staple in so much as they could be brewed into cider and the resulting mash was then used to bulk up food stocks as feed for invasive farm animals.
Your comments don’t seem to address any of this. Why is that?
Your comments don’t seem to address any of this. Why is that?
Because that’s not at all what the original comment was about. Why am I expected to offer up a treatise on the consequences of apples on the American frontier in order to debunk someone purporting – unsubstantiated and evidently with no regard for the truth – that Appleseed was running “a land grab scam based on the laws of the time”?
Thank you for the further context. The original tone of the comment I replied to could have been construed as support.
Yup, this whole ownership thing is totally fubar!
(and yes, I do prefer to own things too, but there could be a healthy middle ground)
private, public, and personal property are three different concepts. most anarcho-communists have no objection at all to personal property
There are literally zero leftist ideologies who have a problem with personal property.
Yes, I’m just saying before the ‘they’re taking your stuff!’ people come out 😉
saaame lol. it’s amazing how certain political positions are like “you know how civilization is fundamentally structured around violence? what if… we just… didn’t?”
and then people are like “THEY’RE TRYING TO TAKE AWAY OUR STRUCTURAL VIOLENCE, GET THEM!!!”
BuT My tOoThBrUsH!!!
that why billionaires are good 🧠
I wonder if that person would consider foraging for mushrooms and berries in the forest to be stealing as well.
It can be.
Poaching on the king’s land, you are!
Not all forests are public, and laws vary by location! Imagine that.
Bro literally says “in public spaces”.
Also; fuck private property and fuck the laws that protect it.
Can you point to the “bro” who “literally” said “in public spaces” in this thread?
. . . the picture you’re commenting on says “public spaces”. That is the context of the entire conversation.
You argued that “it can be” stealing “off a public tree”, now you’re claiming not all trees are public.
Are you trolling right now?
When I lived in the city, we caught people trespassing all the time stealing our fruit off our trees.
They would walk up our private driveway, and walk on our path near our front door, then load BAGS full and leave. I called them out as thief a few times, but those Mother F@$@ people just give a smug look back. These people were Pure evil. So happy to move to the country.
Did you ever try peeing on them?
I imagine they walk too fast.
Before getting off notoriously racist Nextdoor, I did see a few folks complaining about this, they couldn’t harvest their own fruit crops because homeless folks would just come grab it all, usually before it was ripe enough to eat. This kicked off a big battle over who deserved the fruit more. Arguments that would have been better directed at the political leaders here who refuse to provide enough resources for the homeless. When we have to debate whether people can keep the fruit of their own trees, but we aren’t building shelters or allocating food at the macro level, then we have fallen deep in to the libertarian trap.
It’s people with Mercedes and BMW that steal from our trees, not homeless.
It’s pretty incredible, at least in the areas in the US where i have lived, to see who feels entitled to things and who does not.
They didn’t get rich by paying their fair shair…
Well, how do you like them apples?
Free
