I’m sorry but this is an old tactic in my country. 2 major parties always fighting for power, and the one always ask to vote them because the other party will destroy the country.
And the blame goes to the no voters or the ice-cream voters or the voters that turn their back, not to the party itself or to their voters that did shit when they were in power for many years. Maybe its time to pay attention to what caused the problem and not to the result.
As for the USA, Trump is the outcome of the Democrats acting as Republicans for decades.
deleted by creator
Who let Tim Pool in here
A world with half as many people in it would be so nice. Thanos had the right idea.
The ice cream no longer exists. It hasn’t existed for a long time, and no amount of wishing will bring it back.
I want ice cream, too. But before we can have ice cream again, we need to not die.
Really? Because Scandinavia has really nice ice cream. Europe too, with some problems.
You’re right - it’s more like one group voting to drive off a cliff and the other voting to just drive really close to the cliff in case we decide to go off on some other vote, but so long as the cliff doesn’t win now, we can focus on convincing people ice cream is the better option. We don’t, and instead wait 4 more years to complain about the lack of ice cream, but that’s a separate problem.
Jeez more of this b b both sides same stuff.
If you think literally saying “they’re definitely different, but the difference is smaller than ideal” means “they’re the same” then things will never be fixed.
Dude you changed this it from “we want ice cream” to “we want to drive next to the cliff so we can drive off it later”. That’s not smaller than ideal, you literally changed it both sides the same, just later.
No, I changed it to “one side killing us, the other not, but still leaving it on the table” Which is a huge difference, but still a troubling scenario. Not driving off a cliff is orders of magnitude better than driving off a cliff, but still significantly worse than ice cream.
Dude one side wanted to get ice cream and you changed it to “nah, not that. I’m gonna change it to what the other side wants, just later. Change it to the complete opposite”. You completely changed it. Changed everything. Smh. That you either don’t want to see that or can’t see that… I’m out.
Still better than not voting to not go off the cliff.
The problem is people have voted for ice cream. They have read about people voting for ice cream for years before they were even born.
Lots of people want ice cream but we are at a point where people KNOW the cliff exists. They DO NOT know the ice cream shop exists because all the times they were PROMISED ice cream the bus just stopped at a sewage treatment plant.
The voters are not the problem. They have zero reason to trust the bus driver. Because the bus driver refuses to throw the cliff voters off the bus. Bad optics.
The voters are not the problem. They have zero reason to trust the bus driver. Because the bus driver refuses to throw the cliff voters off the bus.
The voters chose the bus driver.
No they don’t.
Voters are told to pick which driver they want and both drivers don’t listen to directions and can’t read a map.
So some voters don’t care who’s driving the bus or where it’s going.
Because they have no reason to care.
They tolerate the shitty ride and shitty passengers while looking out the window. Waiting for the ride to end. But it never does.
Yes, they do. The voters get a chance to decide who those two drivers are, and 85% of them stay home. Then they got to choose between the driver that wants to drive off the cliff, and the driver who swears they’ll go get ice cream. And then 40% of the voters stay home.
Now the driver’s taking us off the cliff, and you’re whining that the driver that got the most votes is doing exactly what they said they would.
They have every reason to care, but they don’t anyway. You can’t abdicate your power and then complain no one listens to you. We had a chance to have better choices, but no one but retirees reliably show up to primaries.
That’s QUITTER talk! I’m voting for Rocky Road.
So the cliff?
Brick on the pedal.
I LOVE Rocky Road
20 people voted to drive over the cliff. 30 people voted to fucking gun it and send that shit straight into the abyss. 1 person voted for ice cream but the cliff voters beat him to death. 50 people didn’t vote
Not really
One one hand harm reduction is nice, but on the other I have seen exactly nothing from Western politics these past few years to convince me that any harm is being reduced. The principle of harm reduction requires serious, productive action (so not canvassing and voter drives, for the love of God stop doing voter drives) to be taken during the period when the harm is reduced to push democracy off its collision course with fascism. When progressives don’t take that serious action—or worse, actively shut down said action—they’re simply kicking the can down the road, turning harm “reduction” from a credible strategy to a farce. I don’t disagree with the principle, but where’s the action necessary for any of this to make sense? Because as far as I can see, harm reduction in America was the farce version.
One one hand harm reduction is nice, but on the other I have seen exactly nothing from Western politics these past few years to convince me that any harm is being reduced.
For fuck’s sake, have you not looked around to see what’s happened these past six fucking months?
The principle of harm reduction requires serious, productive action (so not canvassing and voter drives, for the love of God stop doing voter drives)
“Stop performing one of the core functions of harm reduction that attempts to reduce harm!”
…
to be taken during the period when the harm is reduced to push democracy off its collision course with fascism.
Pointed out below. But I guess it’s not fast enough for your tastes, so let’s do nothing and usher in the fascists to power instead. After all, politics are like a magical pendulum, where one side winning means the other side must get an equivalent win eventually!
When progressives don’t take that serious action—or worse, actively shut down said action—
When the fuck are progressives shutting down serious action?
they’re simply kicking the can down the road, turning harm “reduction” from a credible strategy to a farce.
You’re absolutely right. In the wise words of a political party canvassing for seemingly everything a good fucking third of the ‘left’ commenters here have come to adore, we’re all going to die someday. So why not as soon as possible?
Critical support for harm acceleration! Fuck those minorities anyway.
I don’t disagree with the principle, but where’s the action necessary for any of this to make sense? Because as far as I can see, harm reduction in America was the farce version.
“We’ve managed to make ‘socialism’ into an acceptable word in politics and almost got a democratic socialist into a major party’s nomination twice in the past ten years, in a country which has been immensely hostile to any socialist ideas for at least 70 years, and in an intensified period of anti-government right-wing insanity since 1980.”
“Clearly you haven’t been making any progress, shitlib! Time to abandon all levers of power to the fascists.”
For fuck’s sake, have you not looked around to see what’s happened these past six fucking months?
I have, and I know that without the serious action I was talking about it was a question of whether Alligator Alcatraz would’ve been opened in 2025 or 2029, with maybe a small chance of 2033. There was nothing unique about 2025 that made it the ideal timing for a fascist takeover.
“Stop performing one of the core functions of harm reduction that attempts to reduce harm!”
Well as long as all or most of your energy is going to harm reduction you’ll only ever end up with fascism.
Pointed out below. But I guess it’s not fast enough for your tastes, so let’s do nothing and usher in the fascists to power instead. After all, politics are like a magical pendulum, where one side winning means the other side must get an equivalent win eventually!
Oh I’m under no illusion that fascists winning would (or, well, will given that they’ve pretty much already won) bring about a socialist revolution or any of that stuff.
When the fuck are progressives shutting down serious action?
Remember Uncommited? Palestine protests? Calls for Biden to step down? I have seen all three get called Russian psy-ops by supposedly left-leaning people on Lemmy. You probably know better than me whether that’s a representative sample of American politics, but holy hell for a time you couldn’t say anything bad about Biden without getting showered with downvotes around here. This sort of cannibalism was one of the many forms of complicity that allowed the march to fascism to proceed unimpeded.
You’re absolutely right. In the wise words of a political party canvassing for seemingly everything a good fucking third of the ‘left’ commenters here have come to adore, we’re all going to die someday. So why not as soon as possible?
I mean, in this case we’re more talking about whether it’s worth it to pay through the nose for life support when you already know what you have is terminal.
“We’ve managed to make ‘socialism’ into an acceptable word in politics and almost got a democratic socialist into a major party’s nomination twice in the past ten years, in a country which has been immensely hostile to any socialist ideas for at least 70 years, and in an intensified period of anti-government right-wing insanity since 1980.”
That would be nice-ish progress in saner times, and a few decades of it and you might’ve had a shot at sane government (if the establishment didn’t manage to tank the whole affair, anyway), but like what makes you think you ever had that kind of time? The clock was already ticking with Bush, really got going with Obama and Trump 1 pretty much sealed the deal. When I say fascism was inevitable I don’t mean it was coming within decades; I mean America was going to be fascist by 2033. Much more direct action was needed to prevent fascism within that timeframe. So with that in mind,
But I guess it’s not fast enough for your tastes
No, it’s not fast enough for the reality on the ground.
I have, and I know that without the serious action I was talking about it was a question of whether Alligator Alcatraz would’ve been opened in 2025 or 2029, with maybe a small chance of 2033. There was nothing unique about 2025 that made it the ideal timing for a fascist takeover.
Jesus fucking Christ. Do you know nothing of the history of this fucking country?
Oh, what am I saying? History is terribly inconvenient.
Well as long as all or most of your energy is going to harm reduction you’ll only ever end up with fascism.
Therefore, power should be handed over to the fascists as quick as possible. Great.
Oh I’m under no illusion that fascists winning would (or, well, will given that they’ve pretty much already won) bring about a socialist revolution or any of that stuff.
So your opposition to harm reduction is… what? The belief that getting fascism sooner is Good, Actually?
Remember Uncommited? Palestine protests? Calls for Biden to step down? I have seen all three get called Russian psy-ops by supposedly left-leaning people on Lemmy.
All three of those were championed primarily by progressives.
You probably know better than me whether that’s a representative sample of American politics, but holy hell for a time you couldn’t say anything bad about Biden without getting showered with downvotes around here.
Golly gee, I wonder why people might be hostile towards beating the “BIDEN BAD” drum during the period of 2024 when he was the only non-fascist candidate with a serious chance of winning the 2024 election.
It must be because we’re secretly shitlibs. It’s that deeply engrained desire to not lose an election to a fascist that gives us away - don’t we know that both sides are basically fascists anyway?
In any case, the ‘Big, Beautiful Bill’ has passed, so I get to have my healthcare stripped away and vomit blood on the floor until I bleed out, so thanks for your unrelenting support for anti-anti-fascism for being insufficiently pure! If you want, I’ll send you a selfie once the black-flecked puke starts coming up, so you have a nice little souvenir to celebrate with.
Maybe you can find another country to asspat accelerationists in until the fascists win, and get a few more selfies of that sort. Then you’ll REALLY be owning the libs!
This sort of cannibalism was one of the many forms of complicity that allowed the march to fascism to proceed unimpeded.
… the sort of cannibalism of… trying to push the necessity of a united front against a literal and outright fascist who was projected to win nearly half the vote?
If that’s cannibalism, I shudder to think what you consider attacking the anti-fascist coalition candidate as.
I mean, in this case we’re more talking about whether it’s worth it to pay through the nose for life support when you already know what you have is terminal.
“You see, if we operate under the axiom that our fate is inevitable, our fate is inevitable.”
Wow, I’m just blown away by the complexity of that analysis. I guess we’re all going to die, though, so we might as well hand over all power to the fascists as soon as we can.
The fuck are you ‘saving’ that money for, anyway, if the end result is that you’re going to die? Pure thrift? Want to be buried with it?
That would be nice-ish progress in saner times, and a few decades of it and you might’ve had a shot at sane government (if the establishment didn’t manage to tank the whole affair, anyway), but like what makes you think you ever had that kind of time? The clock was already ticking with Bush, really got going with Obama and Trump 1 pretty much sealed the deal. When I say fascism was inevitable I don’t mean it was coming within decades; I mean America was going to be fascist by 2033. Much more direct action was needed to prevent fascism within that timeframe.
If you were alive in 1950, you’d be saying the American Auschwitz was going to open by 1960 or 1962 anyway, so harm reduction was pointless. We were on the inevitable path to fascism within a decade, and there was nothing that could be done about it so long as the SHITLIBS were still in power.
No, it’s not fast enough for the reality on the ground.
“It’s not fast enough, so stop, give up, and die”
Therefore, power should be handed over to the fascists as quick as possible. Great.
Again, that is literally not what I’m saying, and at this point you seem to be arguing with a strawman. I’m not anti-harm reduction; I simply believe that the efficacy of harm reduction is predicated on effective action that simply does not exist at present. What I’m calling for is for the left to shift gears to direct action to coerce the system into getting its shit in order. Also vote for the less shitty candidate, but that shouldn’t be where you put all or even most of your energy, because losing that particular bet is a mathematical certainty.
So your opposition to harm reduction is… what?
See above.
All three of those were championed primarily by progressives.
Yes, there’s a reason I called it cannibalism.
Golly gee, I wonder why people might be hostile towards beating the “BIDEN BAD” drum during the period of 2024 when he was the only non-fascist candidate with a serious chance of winning the 2024 election.
See? This is exactly what I’m talking about. Biden 2024 wasn’t an outlier in an otherwise sane political climate; that shit was the new post-2016 normal. Any credible strategy needed to provide a path to victory through that new normal within a decade (more realistically five years, but eh) without letting fascists win in the meantime. So-called harm reduction focuses so much on the latter that it does nothing substantial to address the former.
If you want, I’ll send you a selfie once the black-flecked puke starts coming up, so you have a nice little souvenir to celebrate with.
Looking forward to it ;).
If you were alive in 1950, you’d be saying the American Auschwitz was going to open by 1960 or 1962 anyway, so harm reduction was pointless.
American Hitler wasn’t winning elections in 1950 so… no?
there was nothing that could be done about it so long as the SHITLIBS were still in power.
Okay it’s starting to feel like you’re scanning my responses for keywords rather than actually reading what I’m saying.
Again, that is literally not what I’m saying, and at this point you seem to be arguing with a strawman. I’m not anti-harm reduction; I simply believe that the efficacy of harm reduction is predicated on effective action that simply does not exist at present.
Except your entire argument here is positing that harm reduction is worthless because it doesn’t serve the long-term goals you see as necessary fast enough.
What I’m calling for is for the left to shift gears to direct action to coerce the system into getting its shit in order.
And reminding everyone that harm reduction under current circumstances is pointless, don’t forget.
Also vote for the less shitty candidate, but that shouldn’t be where you put all or even most of your energy, because losing that particular bet is a mathematical certainty.
… losing elections is a mathematical certainty?
Yes, there’s a reason I called it cannibalism.
Because… progressives made campaigns, and largely, simultaneously, supported the Dem candidate…?
See? This is exactly what I’m talking about. Biden 2024 wasn’t an outlier in an otherwise sane political climate; that shit was the new post-2016 normal.
Okay? What the ever-loving fuck does that have to do with ensuring Biden in 2024 didn’t lose, because his opponent was a literal fascist?
“He wasn’t giving us a long-term strategy for victory, so fuck your anti-fascist coalition!”
This is the doomer equivalent of accelerationism.
Any credible strategy needed to provide a path to victory through that new normal within a decade (more realistically five years, but eh) without letting fascists win in the meantime. So-called harm reduction focuses so much on the latter that it does nothing substantial to address the former.
“I wonder why these people are so worried about not dying of thirst today??? Don’t they know that they haven’t fixed the problems in water supply over the next decade???”
If only we worried less about dying of thirst today. Such short-term thinking!
Looking forward to it ;).
Unsurprising. The lives of marginalized groups don’t matter if they’re insufficiently ideologically pure. I guess I was too interested in not dying because of a fuckwad fascist administration.
American Hitler wasn’t winning elections in 1950 so… no?
Oh, sorry, so you prefer 1896 or 1912 or 1968 or 1980 for your narrative of “America was going to fall forever to fascism in ten years, and there’s nothing these silly ‘harm reducers’ can do about it”?
Okay it’s starting to feel like you’re scanning my responses for keywords rather than actually reading what I’m saying.
Your entire fucking point is predicated on the idea that fascism is inevitable because change wasn’t happening fast enough, so harm reduction was functional worthless to pursue. I am absolutely reading what you’re saying; the problem is you aren’t following the logical conclusions of what you yourself are saying.
This is just accelerationism. Which like ok but let’s call it what it is and admit that it’s a dangerous idea with a horrible and immediate human cost.
What? No. Accelerationism would be “we should vote for fascists/not vote at all,” which is not at all what I’m saying here. My point is that the left’s strategy needs to radically change if it wants to have a hope of stopping fascism. To repeat, I want fascism to be stopped here; my argument is that the way the left has been attempting to do so is woefully inadequate.
My point is that the left’s strategy needs to radically change if it wants to have a hope of stopping fascism.
Cool, so, the thinking is to buy yourself enough time to convince the left to radically change?
No? “We haven’t changed enough yet for my tastes, so this is all pointless”?
To repeat, I want fascism to be stopped here; my argument is that the way the left has been attempting to do so is woefully inadequate.
And that you see no point in buying more time, don’t forget, calling it a ‘farce’ at first, and then, after conceding that there was significant progress, dismissing it as ‘not fast enough’ to be worth considering.
There’s a good fucking chance that I’m a dead man walking. The projections for additional deaths caused directly by this administration are in the millions. Quite literally every fucking left-wing cause in this country has been set back immensely by this fascist victory, and fascists internationally significantly strengthened. And yet there are people here, people like you, who aren’t stupid but seem quite content to bang a very stupid drum, insisting that preventing this would not have been all that big an issue - because we’re all going to
diebecome fascist in the end anyway, so what does it matter if it’s four years from now or today?I fucking take my meds every day not because I think I’ll gain immortality if I keep doing it, I do it because it staves off death one more day at time. Despite the fact that it doesn’t cure the underlying problem of chronic illness/mortality.
So yeah, I’m a little fucking pissed whenever this comes up.
I agree people should have voted kamala to prevent what’s happening now…
But for progression now, nothing about shaming the voters disenfranchised by the Democrats is worthwhile.
The Democrats were never entitled to any votes, they shouldn’t have been so conceited as to tank their own popularity with conceit in the interest of capital.
The ones who voted for trump are to blame in the immediate for sure, what’s happening right now in the US is tragic. But to be so myopic as to pretend that’s all that matters is foolish.
The Democrats were never entitled to any votes,
Here we go again. Not voting for the Dems was fine, because Dems aren’t ‘entitled’ to anyone’s vote. So glad people chose to punish the Dems at the expensive of the lives of millions of actual human beings. But surely, the Dems will learn not to act entitled after THIS defeat. I mean, it didn’t work the last fifty fucking times, but THIS time, they’ll learn their lesson, and all those people murdered by the fascist ghouls that abstainers let into power will at least have their deaths be for a worthy cause!
Yes, the Dems’ll learn any day now… if only we let a few million more minorities get murdered, they’ll surely learn…
It’s not accelerationism. Accelerationism presumes that a good result will follow the bad one. This is more “Fascism is going to come, and it’s not going to usher in a socialist revolution, so just let it come as quick as it wants to.”
Nine people get on a bus, but it is decided that only votes cast from the 3 people sitting at the front of the bus will get to decide the direction.
Why shouldn’t people trapped at the back of the bus with no sway over the vote express their opposition to the system itself?
I really don’t understand the issue people have with individuals who are in safe red or blue states voting in protest
I really don’t understand the issue people have with individuals who are in safe red or blue states voting in protest
safe is not safe… in australia this most recent election we had a lot of “safe” conservative seats switch (🥳)
I really don’t understand the issue people have with individuals who are in safe red or blue states voting in protest
Because if all the individuals who think they’re in safe zones actually got out and voted seriously instead of protest voting or abstaining, THERE WOULD NOT BE ANY SAFE RED AREAS.
For that to actually for real happen, there would have to be a campaign and a candidate to convince enough people to do that. “We’re the harm reduction option” clearly isn’t that campaign.
Key sentence in that article: “The findings suggest that Mr. Trump’s brand of conservative populism once again turned politics-as-usual upside down”
As in: people don’t fucking want status quo.
Democrats: if we just status quo harder we’ll attract the unicorn moderates and win!
/Wrist
I really don’t understand the issue people have with individuals who are in safe red or blue states voting in protest
It’s less problematic, but still not great. Elections maintain legitimacy on the perception of democracy - the more the democratic result is at variance with the results of the system, the greater the ‘winning’ candidate is undermined. A clear vote against the fascist discourages cooperation from various fence-sitting ghouls who, nonetheless, retain significant power to hinder the incoming administration. A significant enough disconnect between the democratic result and the result of the system can, and historically has in other countries, led to mass unrest and the overthrow of ‘illegitimate’ victors, though in the US the difference between winner and loser in this area has never been above statistical noise.
By contrast, a victory of the plurality of the vote is seen as legitimizing, encouraging careerist middle-of-the-road ghouls, both politicians and bureaucrats, to cooperate with and enable the regime to a greater degree.
Put less verbosely:
It’s best to deny fascists victory. However, if the circumstances (of the nation or your vote specifically) do not allow for that, it’s best to deny fascists the perception of a democratic mandate.
Protest voting in a safe state is better than non-voting, but it still has a negative effect in the case of a fascist victory.
The people who don’t vote don’t care when it comes down to it. its like when people call Nazis Nazis as if offends them. Or when someone calls a gay person gay… It’s just like… Oh okay.
Some of the people refuse to believe that the accelerator and steering wheel do anything, even though the pro-cliff people are clearly steering and accelerating.
Some people think we’ve already gone over the cliff, and thus trying to drive the bus is meaningless.
They’re wrong, but they believe it, and people’s beliefs are sometimes too precious to let go.
And some people aren’t on the bus, just on video chat, but for some reason are still arguing to drive off the cliff.
Can we blast the last point with a megaphone 24/7 in people’s faces or is that too much to get the point across?
There are none so deaf as those who refuse to listen.
As Mark Twain once remarked, “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon him not understanding it.”
Do you think people who are too stupid to vote for their own and their fellow citizens’ best interests are going to understand it in analogy form? Just try a straight forward “Hey, when you use a stapler on your own forehead, it actually hurts you, believe it or not, you fucking moron.”
Just try a straight forward “Hey, when you use a stapler on your own forehead, it actually hurts you, believe it or not, you fucking moron.”
We tried. Unfortunately, they’re too stupid to understand that too.
I realized after I wrote that that that, itself, is an analogy. So, maybe just carry a stapler. :)
We need a “neither” option. If that one wins neither candiate gets to be president and the parties have to pick someone else. Not voting counts as neither.
If only.
Being made aware I’m lashed to a bunch of psychotic apes is terrifying and makes me want to kill the rest of the people on the bus and take control myself.
People are the absolute worst.
Is that bold in a title?
Yes.
That’s cool, I didn’t know you could do that. Does all markdown work or only a subsection?
Every time I see people complaining about 3rd party voters all I can picture is the “Am I so out of touch?” meme. Like, y’all already shot yourselves in the face 3 times in a row and it surprisingly didn’t fail 1/3 times, but you’ll blame literally anyone but yourselves. Run a candidate people want, run policies people want, and support that candidate and those policies instead of throwing everything you can against them because you like money, and we would not be anywhere near where we are now. People vote for trump because they don’t want another fucking “nothing will fundamentally change” politician. The country is already shit. It needs to change. But dems are happy with it how it is. They don’t care about immigrants, or poor people, or social security, or women’s rights, or whatever. They just hold onto those as carrots on a stick. They just want to keep making millions, and would rather trump win so they don’t have to actually embrace populist policy. That’s why people don’t vote. The choice isn’t ice cream or drive off a cliff. Its do we drive into a wall and die now, or drive off a cliff so it takes slightly longer to die, the drive off a cliff people shot the 2 people who asked if they could vote for ice cream and that’s why the others didn’t vote.
I’m starting to wonder if there isn’t a concerted op going on to whip people into believing in an unending two party system forever.
Run a candidate people want, run policies people want, and support that candidate and those policies instead of throwing everything you can against them because you like money
Golly gee, if only there were some way that parties decided what candidates they were going to run, and what policies that candidate supported.
Unfortunately, as we all know, such decisions are made by The Secret Cabal and us lowly voters have no part in it.
Signed, someone who had a fever dream in 2016 and 2020 and remembered voting in something called a ‘primary’ for some ‘Bernie Sanders’ guy.
I can count on one finger the times that the person I voted for in a primary went on to win the general election.
And then he got brain damage and became a Republican.
Voting in the primaries doesn’t appear to do anything.
Sure dude, keep pretending the DNC doesn’t run anything and that they have zero influence or agenda and it’s all the perfect will of the people. You’re right, the people with billions of dollars in charge of the party are really just chill dudes who listen to what people really want.
Sorry for not thinking that every public poll was rigged by The Shadow Elite and that Bernie actually won the primaries by millions of votes which were shredded without a single hint of evidence left behind by the Puppetmasters of the DNC.
Maybe people are voting for what they want, and the issue is a lack of education…?
No, no, it must be the Shadow Cabal sabotaging all the polls. I’m SURE of it!
Pug. Long time fan here but I’m curious if you’ve read “Shattered” yet? It is a well researched book about the inner machinations of the Hillary campaign and goes into depth as to what / how things went horribly wrong. I used to think like you, but the reality is it’s a bit of column A and a bit of column B.
Tl;dr: even if Bernie had polled well among mainstream voters, it would have taken mountains to move the whale that is Hillary. She had ties to every corner of the DNC. It’s not totally that she had to rig the primary, but it was a fools errand to run against someone as powerful and well connected as her.
I mean, my argument isn’t that Hillary didn’t have deep ties to the DNC, or that the DNC didn’t want a coronation in 2016, but that the bias of the DNC and the influence of Hillary’s campaign on the primary beyond that of a normal candidate was not significant enough to create the massive amount we lost by. If we’d lost by 1-2%, or even as high as 4-5%, maybe there’d be a stronger argument, but at 12%, without evidence of serious malfeasance beyond favoritism, it’s pretty clear that… Bernie was just not the more popular candidate. While frustrating, the core problem was not Hillary being well-connected - it’s the US still being an immensely right-wing country.
That Bernie polled even lower in 2020 against Biden, losing many of the areas he carried in 2016, also shows that a non-neglible proportion of the votes Bernie did get were from anti-Hillary votes, rather than pro-socialist sentiment.
Fair point. I do agree that the mainstream electorate skews skews further right than terminally ill online leftists. I just think running a robot over a populist against another populist was a severe miscalculation by the DNC, regardless of how well he polled. Hillary had the charisma of a wooden board and a lot of baggage. Polls are useful to getting a pulse of the people at a moment in time. Many polls showed Bernie outperforming Hillary against Trump. The context matters. But I hear you.
My brother in christ, could you strawman any harder?
NOBODY thinks bernie ‘actually won’. Pretty much everyone who saw the 2016 election knows that Hillary won the primary, due to smear campaigns against bernie backed by establishment democrats. You know, the EXACT same thing that’s going on with Zohran Mamdani RIGHT FUCKING NOW. He WON the primary, and not by some secret cabal type shit but by the will of the voters by running gasp populist policies that actually help out the working class. And the establishment DNC is doing everything they can to smear him even AFTER getting the will of the voters, in favor of Andrew Cuomo or Eric Adams.
“If liberals are so fucking smart then why do they lose so god damn always?”
Instead of blaming the leftists who may or may not have voted (which for what it’s worth, I have never met a leftist irl who abstained voting even in a ruby red state) why don’t you fucking blame the people who are actively driving the bus off the cliff?
Or how about you LEARN from the last decade?
Because this right here is why establishment dems AND republicans ain’t doing too hot. You look at Trump’s victories and never ask ‘why did all these people vote for this fucking asshole?’. Instead, you write everyone who voted Trump as a racist or a sexist or a NAZI and while they’re perfectly willing to associate with NAZIs, it’s important to fucking learn why the fuck they voted for that asshole. And yeah, some of them definitely voted for racism or sexism reasons, but you’re absolutely braindead if you think the fact that he ran on eliminating corruption (‘drain the swamp’) and ran on making things better for the working class (‘price of eggs’). Was he lying? Yup. Is he a corrupt fascist? 100%, but unlike literally everyone else in the 3 presidential campaigns he ran in (excluding bernie ofc) absolutely NOBODY was speaking to the working class or populist policies. It was ‘I’m with her’ or ‘Trump bad’ or ‘It’s my turn’.
So, feel free sitting on your high horse saying ‘oh, well if the voters weren’t so dumb we would be at brunch’ instead of focusing on the people whose entire job it was to inspire people to vote for them, and keep dividing the working class more and more. You’re only playing into their hands, and yes I am talking about the billionaires that you’re sucking off rn.
NOBODY thinks bernie ‘actually won’
HA! Hahahaha! My dude, just sit here. They will be by. They usually ramp up around elections and the cause of Bernie not being in charge of all things is always DWS and the DNC. He actually won but they stole it by not letting people see how awesome he was. Yes, literally. Yes, a lot of them. Yes, every goddamned time.
unlike literally everyone else in the 3 presidential campaigns he ran in (excluding bernie ofc) absolutely NOBODY was speaking to the working class or populist policies.
Bullshit. 100% pure, uncut, arrogant “leftist” bullshit. No, I will not google it for you. PoliSci 101 is over, fascism is in place and it’s time to learn how difficult it is to get three progressives to agree on anything in actual, real-life, not-the-internet practice.
This fucked up “take” is the exact same since NADER and what have you got? A party? A name? A fucking t-shirt slogan ffs? No. Nothing.
Beyond worthless. Actively cancerous to actual progress. It’s painful because everyone goes through it and no one listens to the people with experience and the fascists vote in lock-step and we lose again.
Politics is stuck in a time loop.
Both can be true. The major US parties are both rotten to the core and as such the leadership of the democrats has much of the responsibility for this, but people not voting are still fascism enablers, albeit to a lesser degree than those voting for trump for non-fascism reasons.
Voting third party is one thing, it’s the only way outside of revolution you’re going to escape from the established two parties. Not voting only signals apathy and the only explicit statement is “I’m ok with whoever wins, including the raping racist hitler v2”.
Do me a favor pal: show me proof that it was leftists who didn’t vote this time. In fact, show me proof that the people who didn’t vote were against harm reduction. Show me any proof any evidence from ANYWHERE that the people who refused to vote… were refusing to vote? Show me any evidence that says that says anything with any certainty about ANYONE who did not vote?
Oh, you can’t? Well that makes sense, because we don’t actually KNOW who left the electorial arean. We don’t know WHY they left the electorial arena, and we don’t know WHAT they were thinking. So, I’d love to know why everyone seems so certain that it was the left who stopped voting entirely as opposed to the non-MAGA right or even the liberal center. And the reseaon everyone is CERTAIN it’s the left if because that’s been the reused talking point that’s been dragged out every time there’s been a lull in the insanity since Jan 20th. Almost like somebody doesn’t want the subject to die. Almost like someone profits off of the left and the center fighting each other instead of fighting the 1%.
People who stopped voting entirely may be facism enablers, I’m not disagreeing. But, there’s no actual, solid evidence to blame that shit on any one group in particular. And even despite that, it’s absolutely INSANE that we’re hyper focused on the imagined people we THINK didn’t vote for the reasons we think they didn’t vote, and yet IGNORE the people we KNOW voted for this and IGNORE the reasons they’re telling us they voted for this.
Like tf? Thinking billionaires have been and are continuing to demonize any actual progressive candidate and are propagandizing broad swaths of the electoral is an inane conspircay theory when it’s something we have seen evidence of time and time and time again, and in the same breath saying that people who voted for trump are lying about why they voted for trump based on ‘just trust me bro’ is absolutely ludicrous.
I never said it was the left lol, everything I said applies regardless of political leanings. Though in all likelihood there were at least some leftists that didn’t.
Also the commenters that were saying as much on this extremely left leaning platform are probably the ones mainly adressed by OP.
Do me a favor pal: show me proof that it was leftists who didn’t vote this time. In fact, show me proof that the people who didn’t vote were against harm reduction. Show me any proof any evidence from ANYWHERE that the people who refused to vote… were refusing to vote? Show me any evidence that says that says anything with any certainty about ANYONE who did not vote?
Oh, you can’t? Well that makes sense, because we don’t actually KNOW who left the electorial arean. We don’t know WHY they left the electorial arena, and we don’t know WHAT they were thinking.
If there’s one thing that Lemmy has taught me, it’s that people on the left aren’t any smarter than those on the right. Just less vile.
…people not voting is a failure of coalition-building, full-stop…
…meanwhile, a successful coalition is now calling the shots instead; that’s american democracy in action, like it or not…
NOBODY thinks bernie ‘actually won’.
I have seen numerous people on here say that Bernie actually won.
Pretty much everyone who saw the 2016 election knows that Hillary won the primary, due to smear campaigns against bernie backed by establishment democrats.
Oh goodness, I’m glad nothing like that would happen in the general election! If only the Dems had played fair, the GOP certainly would have!
Also, would you like to remind me what a smear campaign does? Does it alter the brainwaves of the hapless Moderate Voter™ to obeying their DNC masters or something?
… or does it appeal to their pre-existing ideas and prejudices to sway them towards a candidate?
No, that sounds too much like voters having agency, and not being mere conduits for the Will Of The Proletariat™. It must be the brainwave altering thing.
And the establishment DNC is doing everything they can to smear him even AFTER getting the will of the voters, in favor of Andrew Cuomo or Eric Adams.
… okay?
He WON the primary, and not by some secret cabal type shit but by the will of the voters by running gasp populist policies that actually help out the working class. And
Yeah, he won in the primary for NYC. Which is good. Great, in fact! But New York City is not all of America, and it’s really quite worrying that so many people here think it is.
“If liberals are so fucking smart then why do they lose so god damn always?”
What does that say, then, if socialists are constantly losing to liberals in this environment?
If we’re using success as a measure of intelligence or correctness, that would lead to some… very concerning conclusions that I would not buy into. But I’m also not the one connecting intelligence and electoral success.
Instead of blaming the leftists who may or may not have voted (which for what it’s worth, I have never met a leftist irl who abstained voting even in a ruby red state) why don’t you fucking blame the people who are actively driving the bus off the cliff?
Bruh, in the past few days alone, on this very comm, there have been numerous, highly upvoted memes and comments in which liberals are blamed for the current state of fascism in this country. I don’t think “Antifascist unity, but only for anti-electoralists ^.^” is all that compelling.
And for the record, I do fucking blame the people who are actively driving the bus off the cliff. And I have done so vocally and repeatedly. But for some reason, many online leftists prefer a circlejerk to examining whether advocating against electoral participation may have helped the literal fucking fascist get elected by a single goddamn percentage point.
Because this right here is why establishment dems AND republicans ain’t doing too hot. You look at Trump’s victories and never ask ‘why did all these people vote for this fucking asshole?’. Instead, you write everyone who voted Trump as a racist or a sexist or a NAZI and while they’re perfectly willing to associate with NAZIs, it’s important to fucking learn why the fuck they voted for that asshole. And yeah, some of them definitely voted for racism or sexism reasons, but you’re absolutely braindead if you think the fact that he ran on eliminating corruption (‘drain the swamp’) and ran on making things better for the working class (‘price of eggs’).
Jesus fucking Christ.
The fact that you fell for that shit - that people are just deeply ‘economically anxious’ or ‘anti-corruption’ goes to show how little you’ve spoken with conservative and swing voters in your lifetime.
Was he lying? Yup. Is he a corrupt fascist? 100%, but unlike literally everyone else in the 3 presidential campaigns he ran in (excluding bernie ofc) absolutely NOBODY was speaking to the working class or populist policies. It was ‘I’m with her’ or ‘Trump bad’ or ‘It’s my turn’.
Yeah, no one was running on a campaign of increasing the minimum wage, a national ban on price gouging, lowering the cost of living, increasing corporate taxes while reducing taxes on small businesses, legalizing marijuana, forgiving student loan debt, increasing child tax credits, and expanding public healthcare systems.
Imagine if someone did that? It’d be wild. They’d probably get incredible support, especially from leftists, and win in a landslide.
I mean, imagine if one of the major party candidates ran with that platform, and was still smeared as a neoliberal shill by self-proclaimed leftists who treated a Trump victory as a defeat for the dreaded shitlib menace? That would be absolutely ghoulish if people who claimed to be leftists were that dedicated to a Trump victory so they could continue to feel good and pure about being against The Man and The System. They’d have literal blood on their hands.
Good thing nothing of the sort happened, and certainly useful low-information idiots didn’t pass that around, engaging in a level of coprophagic propaganda that would embarrass anyone with a hint of basic decency.
You’re only playing into their hands, and yes I am talking about the billionaires that you’re sucking off rn.
“When you don’t think everyone is secretly a socialist at heart, you’re sucking off the billionaires!”
I’m so sorry for not spending all of my time circlejerking with other leftists. I have the deep and abiding misfortune of actually living in the USA.
Lmao. You might live in the USA but your posting history tells me exactly what I need to know about how much you actually talk to IRL people. Dude you moderate like 20 communities and spend your days posting on HERE. You don’t actually speak to irl people. And yes, as someone living in a ruby red state, volunteering with mutual aid groups and political action groups in a ruby red state, yes I HAVE actually spoken to conservatives lately, along with liberals, leftists, and people who have showered since this election. Get off the computer every minute of every day, actually go out and touch grass and DO something material in your life, because you look like a rage-bait bot with control issues who hasn’t spoken to another living human person before. Assuming, ofcourse, that you’re not just a shill account meant to spread propaganda.
Dude you moderate like 20 communities and spend your days posting on HERE.
Yeah, I take like an hour out of my day before work to make one whole post in each of the ~10 communities I mod. Clearly I’m out of control.
The urge to reply back to people who haven’t the first goddamn clue what they’re talking about is more damning and time-consuming, but I make room for it, out of miserable compulsion to not let idiocy go unchallenged in the comment sections I frequent, if nothing else.
yes I HAVE actually spoken to conservatives lately,
And you still believe that they’re just anti-corruption and economically anxious, like some Very Serious Liberal Writer ready to write his sixth consecutive election column about having pancakes with them good holsum country folk?
That’s disturbingly naive that you’d still fall for that. But considering what you’ve said in this comment thread, unsurprising.
Run a candidate people want, run policies people want, and support that candidate and those policies instead of throwing everything you can against them because you like money
Their absolutely pathetic response to Mamdani’s victory in the primary was so flagrant, I’m not even sure how to react to the Democratic party going forward. Not only did they try to stack the deck in Cuomo’s favor, but then they threw a fucking tantrum when Cuomo still lost despite their efforts. They just don’t seem credible to me anymore.
Trying to reach the “I don’t do politics” crowd with “harm reduction” doesn’t really work as a strategy.
Like, they’re already admitting that when something is an unappealing and controversial, they’d rather check out than engage. Going on to explain the gritty strategy for approaching unappealing and controversial politics is just adding more reasons onto the “I don’t do politics” pile.
It’s a crass comparison, but it would be like if someone said “I don’t play MOBAs” and the response was to immediately launch into an explanation of League’s current meta-strategy. Don’t be surprised when they immediately check out of the conversation. (Yes I know games are frivolous and politics is life and death – but the people who “don’t do politics” don’t see it that way)
More than that, nearly all of the “I don’t do politics” people are almost certainly never going to see this image. We’re in an online forum dedicated to talking about politics. The only people who see this are the people who already choose to spend their personal time on the subject. So ask yourself, is this image really about the people who are checked out of politics? Because, practically (regardless of intent) all this really seems to be is a thought-terminating cliche to throw at anyone who points out that running a “We’re the lesser evil candidate!” doesn’t actually engage or activate anyone who’s already checked out!
More than that, nearly all of the “I don’t do politics” people are almost certainly never going to see this image. We’re in an online forum dedicated to talking about politics.
And yet plenty of people here insist that they don’t do bourgeois politics.
But bourgeois politics is sure as fuck going to do them.
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