In normal countries inter-flat walls are thick enough to easily stop a bullet.
Are they though? I seriously doubt that.
They really aren’t unless it’s a solid brick/concrete internal wall.
Even Americans, who are surrounded by guns, do not understand just how much a bullet can go through. I don’t expect people who aren’t exposed to guns every day to know.
About 15 years ago, my Minecraft server admin lived in Columbus Ohio, and a stray bullet from a car chase went through his car door and went through his abdomen and seat, and almost went through the opposing door.
My grandparents had a bullet go completely through their house, both exterior walls, and 3 interior walls, before the bullet got lodged in the brick wall of the church across the street.
I myself have attended events that demonstrated the penetration power of pistols, rifles, and shotguns.
Protip for anyone who wants to have something for home decence but is concerned about neighbors, use a shotgun with either target shot or birdshot. Drywall won’t stop it, but it will seriously limit the damage it does to anything on the other side of the wall.
Thank you. I thought I was going to have to explain how effective most calibers are at penetrating most materials, but you’ve done a wonderful job so now I don’t have to! Even people who own firearms are kinda clueless about it. I’ve seen people recommend pistols as home defense weapons because it’s not going to penetrate as much, not realizing that even 9mm is going through multiple walls. Fuck, on a car just about every common caliber except for .22 LR is going through every part of the vehicle except the engine block.
Americans deserve shit for a lot that’s going on right now, but the “they build houses out of cardboard and sticks” thing has never been exclusive to America. Also, there are plenty of drawbacks to building houses out of bricks and concrete.
You are correct but the stereotype has a point - something like 90% of houses in the US have wood frames. What’s wrong about the stereotype is the implication that wood framing is outright worse than brick as you alluded.
The two biggest factors are speed and cost. Unlike most of the world, the US expanded wide and fast. And also unlike most of the world, the US has an insane amount of forest (even more before colonization). Wood framing has come a long way since then and a well-built house is incredibly strong.
unlike the rest of the world Europe had to build out housing extremely fast after WWII, because whole cities were practically demolished by bombings. Cities built huge blocks of apartment towers, typically from prefabricated concrete panels. These were made in a factory, trucked to the building site, and assembled into 4-20 story towers (8-10 the most typical).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large-panel-system_building
The apartments are small, and typically have distinct heating and no AC. These buildings provided housing for lower income or middle class families, depending on the area, from Spain to Russia. In America, the closest equivalent are the projects. The concrete walls don’t make for very comfortable living spaces. Sound travels between apartments, walls between rooms are frequently drywall. It’s a bitch to drill into if you want to hang anything. District heating means too hot inside when it’s on, and you can’t turn it on or off when you want it.
District heating means too hot inside when it’s on, and you can’t turn it on or off when you want it.
This is just plain incorrect. Every single radiator in apartmentswjrh district heating have individual thermostats on them that control the flow through it, which directly impacts the temperature in the room and can be turned off entirely if you want.
After a while, many buildings were retrofitted with thermostats. I know from experience that in Eastern Europe until the late 90s, there were valves but no thermostats, and radiators were effectively serially connected, so if you shut a valve, everything downstream was shut off too. Some units were always hot and people were growing tropical plants and had their windows open the whole heating season. Other units were miserably cold, depending on where they were within the building.
That’s not really relevant though, is it? The US expansion was wide, they weren’t trying to house a bunch of people in an existing city.
And like it says, those are basically slums.
Some are slums, some are decent. It’s not irrelevant, because you specifically said the US housing is unique because it was built fast. America was not built out in a rush in 10 years while millions were without homes, it was populated gradually over 4-5 centuries. That is a long time compared to the average lifespan of a house. The availability of lumber is a much bigger factor than speed.
I also said “wide” in that same sentence. You are comparing mass housing in a small area to single family homes spread across a large area and the stereotype comes from single family homes.
The US has plenty of multifamily buildings made with prefabbed concrete, they’re just in densely-populated areas
Europe is a small area while San Francisco is a large area? dude you are dumb as fuck, sorry.
I also said “wide” in that same sentence. You are comparing mass housing in a small area to single family homes spread across a large area and the stereotype comes from single family homes.
The US has plenty of multifamily buildings made with prefabbed concrete, they’re just in densely-populated areas
I am like 99% sure you are wrong but I’ll eat my words if you can show me a country’s building codes that say concrete/brick/whatever is required between homes with shared walls.
I think every country has both.
Lots of apartments have thin walls, houses not so much. But yeah we mostly don’t buy guns here.
I believe that in my country shared walls need to be at least REI60 rated (DIN EN 13501-2). REI60 means the load bearing, integrity and thermal resistance hold up for at least 60 minutes during a fire. This almost always means brick walls. I think even if your house is within x amount of meters from another house it also needs to be REI60.
It may almost always mean brick walls but all of that can be accomplished with wood framing as well.
https://e-construction.gov.ua/laws_detail/3083626778627933844?doc_type=2
It doesn’t have a strict “X mm” norms but reglaments a noice propagation. Of course it would take some calculation to translate it into millimeters of brick or concrete, but obviously ultra-thin bullet-penetrable walls won’t fit into this standard.
Assuming you meant noise with an s, noise insulation can easily be done without brick/concrete. In fact the normal way is without brick/concrete. These two things are not the same at all.
I’ll trust your translation but now I will ask that you trust that I’m an AV engineer because I don’t want to actually do the math.
A concrete or brick wall would have to be twice as thick as a properly-treated wood frame wall for the same acoustic isolation. It would cost 2-3x as much, too, not included drilling for conduit/wires.
Yes. It would cost a few times more. And it will stand for x100 times longer. And it has good thermal insulation. And a bullet insulation too :)
Ok, you must be trolling because concrete and brick have TERRIBLE thermal resistance. The same acoustic materials used in a wood wall give it like 20x the insulation.
And if you are not trolling, you should learn more about a subject before speaking on it next time. The claims you are making aren’t true
brick have TERRIBLE thermal resistance
That is the most stupid thought I heard on Internet for the whole week.
I think that depends on whether it’s solid brick or this kind of brick.
Were I live (Portugal) houses tend to be made from the latter kind of brick.
That said, even the latter kind of brick doesn’t provide as good insulation as double walls, either air gapped or (even better) with insulating foam in between, and I’ve only ever seen that used for external walls, mainly in colder (further to the North) countries in Europe.
Bricks do have terrible thermal insulation. You are probably confusing thermal mass for thermal insulation.
No bricks and concrete have high thermal mass, but they have fairly high lamda values making them very poor insulators
Bricks: 0.84 Concrete (dense): 1.4 Hardwood timber: ~0.15 Woodfibre board: 0.11
Wood is still a shitty insulator compared to actual insulation materials, but still much better than both brick and solid concrete.
They’re not wrong though. You might be thinking thermal resistance as in “can hold a blowtorch to it” in which case sure, bricks might win, but that’s not the context here.
R-value measures how quickly heat transfers from one side of an object to the other, a higher number means it insulates better, or resists thermal transfer.
A 4" brick has an R value under one. It’s like 0.8 or so. 1" thick plywood is already better at 1.25 or so. I think the OSB used as sheathing on the outside of wood frame houses is higher still but could be wrong there. Bricks objectively have worse numbers here
Would you mind checking the R value of brick for me? And while you’re at it, check what an insulated wood wall’s is?
Brick and concrete have high thermal MASS, not resistance.
In normal countries, guns aren’t toys you get in a cereal box.
She heard about the dog firing the shotgun in the truck.
No, the firearm was negligently discharged by your “dog,” dumbass.
We can’t keep calling every son of a bitch a dog.
Every dog IS a son of a bitch but not every son of a bitch is a dog.
Huh … Someone should let dogs who aren’t male know about this.
but they had that dog in them
Every dog has its day.
Hold up, but I heard the dog days were over?
Murica.
The fuck to have a unsecured firearm lying around.
The fuck to even have a firearm.
RIP, random battlestation, you served the prime directive:
For a gamer to game, they must actually be alive, above all else.
o7
May Theseus grant you new life.
May Theseus grant you new life.
Well said.
Some people got phrases
According to your user name, you mainly got vibes
Vibes and diatribes.
Here’s an attempt at another one.
If you have a short sentence that tells a tale, but has been through a few rounds of ‘telephone’…
… perhaps what you have is a quip of Theseus.
Gold. I love it
If one is said to ‘wax lyrical’, would this not carry forward to ‘wane gibbous’, meaning to gibber as an ape?
I think the inverse of waxing lyrical would be to wane prosaic.
Oh my. I never thought of it that way. Decades of random component upgrades. New ram here. Upgraded (ram compatible, other compatible part) motherboard there. Changed video card. Replaced burnt harddrive/ssd… Its always been the same PC, while being a completely replaced one.
Always bring something over, power supply, case, RAM, hard drive, in a pinch, data, it’s good luck. Think of it as changing the flag. Pretty sure mine is over 30…
just be cautious with power supply, a failure could crater the whole system.
Valid, always over-engineer the power supply, it should be mostly in the middle of its rating. Worth it for general longevity.
Look at the manual and spec sheets of your supply. It should provide a load chart that has its efficiency at various points. You want your system wattage at full load to sit at the same number as the supplies highest efficiency. The percentage of power lost to conversion comes out as heat, and heat is what kills components.
A few percent at something like 500w can be the difference of 10-15w of extra heat for the supply to deal with. 75% efficiency from a cheaper 850w supply run at the same 500w would leave you with ~125w of power to cool, most of it concentrated on a few components in the supply.
hugs my oldest game machine’s 13-year-old 550w PSU that’s now powering a 2070s and still kickin
Lil champion! I put a kilowatt in my main machine now just because I wanted to, but that old machine is now a VR music game machine and still works perfectly!
Mine has tended to spawn descendants along the way, random bits and parts being assembled for others in and out of the household.
A modern upgrade to the ancient metaphor/philosophical quandary.
Still as apt, but probably more broadly relatable, at least to us veteran navigators that sail the digital seas.
… Maybe a good name for a repair shop or right to repair advocacy org, something with Theseus in it somewhere.
My neighbor would be upgrading my computer for me if this happened
“Found the bullet under their pillow”. Uh huh. Right. I believe this recycled reddit story 100%. There’s no way it could be anything but true.
Why is that incredible?
The shot hit a PC.
After going through the walls of at least one house.
Bullets lose a significant amount of velocity when they blow through or get deflected by various materials.
After going some distance, then through a few walls, and then a gaming PC, it is totally possible that a bit of matress and/or pillow could take its remaining velocity down to zero, if it was basically a non rifle or lower velocity round, 9mm, .22lr, 380 acp, something like that.
They also claim that the police are reconstructing the bullet trajectory here, and have supplied pics of the busted pc, and bullet.
Not saying this all means its 100% verified totally true, but its definitely plausible.
Looks like a banged up 9mm or 380 ACP to me, given this is a woman reporting this, and women generally have smaller hands than men. That slug is way too big to be a .22lr though.
I was going to say, every .22LR I’ve ever seen was lead, too. .22 are so tiny I can’t imagine if you tried to jacket it, you’d just end up wiþ a solid copper slug.
You’re right, þough: þere’s no way þat’s .22LR.
You know I never actually þought about þat, but yeah, I don’t þink I’ve ever actually seen or shot .22lr þat was anything other þan lead.
Presumably somebody does or has at least tried to make a jacketed .22lr? Or maybe þat’s basically why .17hmr and such exist?
There absolutely are jacketed .22 LR rounds. Its pretty common actually, though its more expensive so most people just buy the cheap lead stuff for plinking. The bullet in the picture is absolutely not .22 LR tho.
Yeah! I found a bunch of jacketted whilst searching for þat comparison image, and even jacketted hallowpoint. I’ve just never seen one in þe wild.
What a tragedy!
One of the memory modules was hit.
In today’s market.
There’s literally no way that could have been staged.
I mean… yeah… I guess it could have… you could have shot your own pc… as a stunt… to clout farm… on reddit… for… 0 monetary gain… at the loss of thousands of dollars of… pc hardware.
Yep.
That’s… possible.
I guess.
People do really stupid things for attention.
Yes, like you here, prominently displaying your lack of understanding of ballistics, to great effect, for no apparent reason.
So they did this and then got the neighbor to cry and receive criminal negligence charges affecting her for the rest of her life?
Yeah, that is some seriously stupid shit and I don’t think anyone would do that for attention.
Someone next door like “yupp I’ll go to prison and become a felon and never be able to afford renters insurance again for some reddit karma!”
Surelly somebody doing this on purpose would’ve avoided hitting a memory module.
DIMM modules cost and arm and a leg nowadays.
Lol, like a self inflicted ‘aim to wound, not to maim’ kind of injury, to stage a crime or get out of combat… hahaha!
I don’t own a gun. It’s has nothing to do with politics. I’m a suicide risk; I don’t need a ticket to the bullet train.
The problem is that many, maybe most people are like me. They shouldn’t have a gun. If others were self-aware like me, shit like this would be much more rare. I think you shouldn’t be able to buy a gun unless every member of the household can pass a gun safety test. Including the pets.
Including the pets.
My cat encouraged me to buy guns. Something about overthrowing human bourgeois and installing a cat proletariat government,
Shit yours too?
Yes, she has a little barrette and constantly quotes Meowarx.
The cat was lying: if one looks at who does all the work and who gets fed on somebody else’s work without having to do anything for it, one can only conclude that the cat is the bourgeois.
Unless we’re talking about strays or farm cats (repectivelly the poor and working class of the species)
Well of course, most popular revolutions are captured by even more corrupt people (or cats) who want to overthrow the already corrupt ones so they can be corrupt themselves instead.
The problem with popular revolutions isn’t generally the population themselves, it’s the people who end up in the drivers seat, and the fact that the successful ones will be the ones who know how to manipulate said population into doing… well, pretty much anything, because unfortunately due to human nature and poor education levels that’s rarely very difficult. If anybody ever figures out how to do a people’s revolution that is actually for the people, the world’s going to become a lot better place. I’m not holding my breath though.
I own guns. I enjoy shooting paper targets at the range and clay disks flying through the air. I grew up around guns on a farm. I’m very comfortable handling them.
Me, and responsible people like me, are PARANOID about gun safety. Even if I KNOW it’s unloaded, I never point it in an unsafe direction. Like, not even towards the right because my neighbors house is that way 300 yards away through a concrete basement wall etc. I never point it at something I don’t intend to kill/destroy, and my finger never touches the trigger unless I intend to pull it. When the gun isn’t in my direct and immediate control - it’s locked up.
I HATE assholes like the person in this story. They deserve criminal negligence, their guns taken away forever, and some community penalty that’s severe. There is no way in hell “the dog did it”. Give me a break. At best, they were cleaning it in an unsafe manner and did some very negligent things (didn’t check the chamber, pointed it at their neighbor, pulled the god damn trigger), OR they were being a complete jackass and waving it around gangster style.
Yeah, precisely.
There are actually quite a lot of regulations, in not all, but a lot of US states, that mandate varying levels of safe storage of firearms.
The problem is that to actually enforce that fully, you’d basically need surprise food inspectors, but for guns… which would probably run into the 4th Amendment… or, you’d have to actually revamp the 2nd Ammendment to mandate that people be required to regularly retake/retest on some kind of firearm safety course… I dunno.
But yeah, an actually responsible gun owner… probably has something like a dedicated sand bucket to point a semi auto weapon into, while they are verifying that its fully unloaded and cleared, juuuuust in case some kind of uncommanded discharge happens when you’re racking the slide to get the (potentially) chambered round out.
And yeah, never sweep anybody (or a place where anybody could be, within a mile) even with a gun you personally just unloaded. Never finger a trigger when you don’t need to. You just don’t do that.
I would at least say its possible the dog discharged the weapon, but it doesn’t matter, the situation where that is a thing that can happen should never have been allowed to arise… and yeah, the situations you describe that lead to an ND occuring are much more likely.
It baffles me that this person had to:
- Have thier firearm and ammo in proximity without the intent to immediately discharge it
- Have their firearm LOADED in their own home without the intent to discharge it.
- “theoretically” leave it LOADED and unattended in their home long enough for “their dog” to discharge it.
Yeah this is absolutely the type of person who should not be allowed to handle firearms.
This is the type of person that should not have a child, a car, and many other things. This is an irresponsible person with everything. The dog was in danger. The neighbors were in danger.
A reminder that a non zero amount of people get shot each year from leaving firearms loaded in the oven in the states.
You could say… he dogged a bullet.
I dunno, with ram prices it might have been cheaper to just get shot
This is what Nvidia wants!
After the dog ate my homework now he shot my gun.
Its so strange for Europeans to read this because we don’t let Weapons randomly lay around armorized and our Walls are not that thin, that this can happen such as easy as with US paperwalls
I guarantee that whatever gun did this could probably go through most internal building walls in European homes too. It’s a gun, not a nerf dart.
Of course, unless it came in from outside the building. In which case, brick would probably stop it, yeah. I’d probably know if I read the article, but, ya know how it goes.
But yes on that first part.
Internal walls are made of brick as well. At least in northern Europe, they have to be it’s too cold otherwise.
Have you heard of this amazing thing called insulation?
Not in 1910 they hadn’t.
Small firearms go through ~10cm thick bricks but not through a computer?
Depends on the material composition and number of other objects it went through on the way to the computer.
The interior walls in my European apartment are made of a thick layer of reinforced concrete I find it quite unlikely any bullets will go through…
Do you have air conditioning? I’m starting to wonder if that’s related to insulation. Or maybe it’s just older. Then again, 120 year old American houses have plaster walls which will also not stop a bullet. Buuuuut European buildings are much older. Or, can be. Probably just built better too.
Air conditioning is very uncommon in my country, because of the climate, so we do not have it. It is insulated quite well, but it probably also helps that there are only two outer walls, while the rest are walls separating apartments. The building is from the early 70’s, so it is not that old.
My internal walls are made of thick reinforced concrete, same as the other person who replied to you. I highly doubt a bullet would be able to penetrate them. I’d assume a brick wall would be weaker than my internal walls. People also don’t have guns lying around at home, usually. But even if that were the case, it is absolutely outlandish to assume somebody could shoot through into my apartment with their handgun.
A fair number of internal walls are also thick brick or concrete. In warmer climates it helps keep the building cool from thermal mass, it’s also sturdier for places prone to hurricanes.
Walls between apartments are usually 25cm thick brick walls or even concrete in Austria. Worked in the field. Drywalls are very unusual even inside a flat. Most of the time you have 12cm thick brick walls.
So a bullet going from flat to flat is veeeryyy unlikely.
I’m not from the field - but i’m from Austria ty for your expertise… I was wondering about the bricks comments i have no bricks in Walls and i think the Walls to my Neighbour are thicker then the Walls in my own Apartment… But not sure ofc
I tought it need at least heavyer Military Weapons to shoot trought it from another Apartment 🤷♂️
Europeans? More like most of the world really…
There are probably more “Man bites dog” stories in Europe than “Dog discharges gun” stories.
Although usually the presence of a wall is protects you.
There are plenty of bullshit dog mauls person stories here too
Last year one that stood out to me was an elderly couple in St. Louis near a park were sitting outside in their back yard and a pack of dogs escaped and attacked them. They mauled the woman to death in front of the husband while he was shooting them trying to defend her with a revolver
Welcome to America where no less than a 6’ spike topped fence and a high capacity .45 is enough to maybe prevent your loved ones from meeting a brutal ended in front of you while you’re just out enjoying your back yard
I’ll link the story when I find it in my post history for anyone who wants to read it. It’s tragic how shitty our society is.
I don’t think those stories are any less common in Europe - selfish assholes with dangerous dogs they haven’t properly trained and don’t know how to control are everywhere as far as I can tell.
It’s selfish assholes with dangerous weapons that they aren’t properly trained to handle that aren’t common around here, even in countries with very liberal gun legislation like Switzerland.
The real irony is the guy couldn’t get those dogs away from them even with a gun
The article says police sent them running with pepper spray, so a chemical deterrent may have saved his wife’s life there if he had it over or as well as the revolver
If the recent assassination attempts on Trump or anything to judge by the real problem seems to be that no one in America can aim their guns. There’s probably some sort of metaphor in that.
Bro, unless its a .22 LR, pretty much every caliber is going to go through most building materials no matter where you live. You don’t have magic bulletbroof walls where you live. 😂
Have you ever shot at brick or stone? Yeah, the right caliber will go right through, but it’s not flying through with near the same velocity as through drywall, paint, and dreams , the stuff my walls are made of right now.
I didn’t say different materials don’t do anything, but yeah, a lot of rifle calibers are going through brick. Especially hunting calibers, of which there are a LOT here.
I can’t say for sure, I only shoot skeet and wood targets on dirt/ground-backed hills.
But https://www.atomicdefense.com/blogs/news/can-bullets-go-through-brick seems to say: “Heavier rounds such as a 7.62x39mm or .308 rifle may penetrate the walls of a brick-veneered house, but it is not likely”
I could imagine a higher caliber hunting round going through a brick wall when pointed at it, but it should be rare to have a high caliber rifle loaded with high caliber rounds off-safety and able to be misfired by a child/dog/freak accident.
And in the UK, that’s just pretty much too impossibly rare to be occurring. The likelihood is higher here, but god I wish it wasn’t
I saw that link too, but there’s plenty of footage online that demonstrate brick will not stop everything.
I don’t think a high caliber rifle is less likely to be negligently discharged than any other caliber. In the US a lot of people own hunting rifles. I don’t know the stats compared to other types of firearms, but I feel like that or a hunting shotgun would be the most pervasive, and thus statistically most likely to be used in an incident like this. That’s just an educated guess though, I may be off base on that one.
What caliber can go through 21cm reinforced massive concrete?
Where do you live that 21cm reinforced massive concrete is the primary building material for residential buildings? That’s not common. Regardless, I said most materials. Not all.
Germany. Other materials are also used but the thickness is commonplace.
If any caliber would be capable of going through that, it would be .50 BMG, but you may have found the exception to the rule.
.30-06 for sure. Maybe .223.
I dare you to try and shoot through my german 22cm brick wall.
Rifle calibers can go through brick.
Yeah, sure, you have that. But we have shitty healthcare and poor collective bargaining rights!
Wait…I lost where I was going with this, lol.
would it help if houses were made of bricks? like i get usa has a gun problem, so perhaps one way to save lives (besides you know stop the gun problem in the first place… but we know that won’t happen) is to have proper walls?
Depends on the caliber. Bricks are pretty good at stopping pistol calibers. Rifle calibers, not as much.
How many people do you think are being shot at through walls? It’s always crazy to get insight on the stuff people think up. This stuff is pretty rare and over published.
Like I get that we green shootings occur they are violent and we could take steps to reduce them (but we won’t)… But it’s not like even hearing gunfire in urban or suburban areas is common.
Unless you live in a very specific area, eg poor as fuck city neighborhoods fun violence isn’t something you’ll run into in your entire life.
Again, not saying we can’t do better, but I never get going to full on, why not armor houses scenarios.
Giving low income men opportunities and community and depression education will save more lives 🤷♂️
Unless you live in a very specific area, eg poor as fuck city neighborhoods fun violence isn’t something you’ll run into in your entire life.
I’m assuming that meant to say ‘gun violence’ and that you don’t think certain kinds of violence is fun.
Indeed. My screen is all but dead.
Ah but you see that might cost $5 more per wall and we just can’t have that because that extra $5 per wall cost might make a rich man not able to golf as many hours at the country club!
“I will never financially recover from this”
Þis is exactly why, if you’re going to use a firearm for home defense, you should go wiþ a shotgun and shot. You may mess up your drywall, but you’re not going to accidentally kill your neighbors.
As an added bonus, you won’t mess up the intruder all that bad either!
Dead’s dead. 12G buck at house ranges will fuck a person up, unless þey’re wearing body armor…
Buckshot will 100% go through drywall though. If your’re concerned about that, you’d have to use birdshot of some kind.
It will, but it’s not nearly as likely to go þrough 4 layers, plus 2 layers of siding, as a jacketed 9mm.
