- cross-posted to:
- YUROP@feddit.org
- cross-posted to:
- YUROP@feddit.org
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Cool, I’ll remember that next time I hear Europeans say that Americans tourists are rude and disrespect others countries cultural norms.
Exploiting workers is not a “cultural norm” I want to continue.
Oh, OK. So, are you boycotting restaurants that pay the tipped minimum wage? Trying to get ballot measures to end the tipped minimum wage approved? Lobbying against the National Restaurant Association for their support of the tipped minimum wage? Or are you just denying exploited workers income and pretending your taking a stand?
Yes, all those
Then this isn’t directed at you, and it’s weird tp jump in to defend tourists who are denying exploited workers income.
Why? We go to Europe and act like asses all the time
Yes. And if Europeans are going to come here and willfully act like asses in our restaurants, I don’t want to hear them piss and moan about obnoxious American tourists anymore.⅔
Then don’t go to the restaurant. Y’all are the biggest fucking hipocrits. Give this guy business but cheap out on the person waiting on you. Pretend it’s on principle but it’s really that you are enormously cheap.
I’m sorry but Europeans are easily the cheapest people on the planet. Stop pretending it’s a protest. You just will take every opportunity to save a penny.
I don’t go to restaurants unless I’m prepared to pay tip.
Not tipping underpaid workers when that’s the established system, like it or not, just takes the exploitation done by the employer, and puts it on the customer. Now the CUSTOMER is the one exploiting the worker, because they know they are getting their food cheaper, simply because they are stiffing the server. The server’s tip is supplementing their dinner costs.
At least be honest about it. You aren’t paying the tip not because you object - it’s just the actual cost of the food, it just contains this weird cultural invisible fee - you just see it as a handy excuse to stiff a hard-working server out of their money. All these rich Europeans come here with plenty of money, they flood the restaurants and pubs, and spend a fortune, which makes the restaurant owners rich, and makes the workers work even harder, for even less.
And then the rich Europeans can go home, and brag about how they taught those evil Americans a lesson about their immoral tipping culture. Meanwhile, the restaurant owners are counting their World Cup profits, while the servers are wondering how they’re going to pay their rent after working twice as hard for half as much.
Sure taught those Americans a lesson, huh?
Almost encourages someone to rise up.
yes, i’m sure being a shitty customer for a couple weeks will totally change the trajectory of the american economic/ political system.
Ah, but if we were ALL shitty customers
As long as you’ve made it clear that it’s up to the tourists to pick which ones they want to continue.
I don’t support tipping culture either, but a) I am not going to punish one waitress in particular, and b) I am not so entitled to think I can just go to a place and choose some customary things to ignore.
Why? I’m sure if you ever left your mom’s basement, you would break tons of cultural norms.
👏👏👏
Do you ever feel like a dumbass when you look at the vote tallies? I wouldn’t worry about it, but then I’m not a dumbass, dumbass.
One of my super powers is not caring what other people think.
Whoa we got bit by the same reddit user.
This is obviously a picture of a Euro Cup fan…
But Europeans do tip. It’s considered good manners to round up the bill (5-10%).
- Not tipping
- Demanding a living wage for workers
I wonder which of these the euros have been more successful at?
Don’t hurt fellow workers unless you’re a capitalist.
As much as I hate tipping (I also don’t get paid extra money for simply doing my fucking job), it is different in third world countries like the USA (a large country in north america, close to Canada and Mexico), which lacks fundamental human rights and a social security system. There, waiters in restaurants usually need tips for earning a living wage as restaurant owners do not or barely pay them. Therefore, tipping is not only polite but also necessary to not additionally punish workers for a system they are barely responsible for. Let’s hope that civilised countries start development projects in the USA in order to improve the system and living conditions of these people.
Political change is difficult as the USA is stuck in a quasi-democratic two-party system that is currently developing towards a dictatorship. But maybe through enough time and effort we can help this country and it’s people to get on a better track.
Noone forces these workers to work there. The problem is that they consciously agree to this
You do know that a lot of people don’t have the option to choose? There is only a limited availability of jobs and sometimes no suitable alternative.
Also, given how it’s legal in the USA to actively suppress the formation of unions, which could make things maybe a tiny little bit better, your comment seems really ignorant of the realities a lot of people have to live in.
Primus~ “Rent is a week late, I have to get a job now, anything!”
Secundus~ “No one forces you to live in an apartment and eat food”
Primus~ “Yeah, you got me, you win the argument. You are the debate master!” (everyone claps)
Noone forces these workers to work there.
People like you do. You expect these restaurants to be open and available when convenient for you to eat at them, but at the same time don’t want them to make a living wage.
It’s the same argument as “Minimum wage is supposed to be for high school kids” while wanting McDonald’s at 10am on a Tuesday.
If you don’t tip, the waiter literally paid for your meal. You’re stealing. It’s very fucked up to not tip. Employees will spit in or step on your food if you’re known not to tip.
We are not developing towards a dictatorship. We have an electoral college. Our presidents have always been decided for us, and our vote for presidency is and always has been merely performative.
I know you probably think you’re joking by calling us a third world country, you think you’re being cute. There are places in the US which are more impoverished than in India, for example West Virginia and Mississippi. I know this because I have heard this comment from Indian doctors who come to the US, both in person and in filmed interviews.
for example West Virginia and Mississippi.
I know this because I’ve driven through rural Georgia. It’s like going back in time.
It’s so crazy to me that Europeans and other foreigners buy into propaganda intended for Americans and then get mad at a total fantasy. The America they think they know does not exist. Edit: This is especially annoying when they try to tell us “vote your way out of it,” holy fuck
I’m sure workers get paid minimum regardless. Tips are a way for the employer to pay sub-minimum wage, as long as they add up above minimum wage in the end.
It’s a federal law…there are a lot of tip based restaurant workers out there who oppose the no tipping and get paid a wage. They can make a lot more via tips, than a salary. It’s a shit position we have in the US.
Absolutely. I think it depends on a few things though. Since federal minimum is still 7.25, any tipped employee in those states with no higher minimum would absolutely hate a salary unless there was still tipping culture. But also, as someone who worked in decent and shitty restaurants alike, the clientelle is a big decider. In a shitty place, I’d rather have a salary, because the people are so selfish and entitled that they refuse to tip if we didn’t serve something that was never on the menu, or think $2 is suitable for a $20-$50 meal. In a better place, where tips are more consistent and proportional, tips are a better choice.
On point, but “quasi-democratic” is a bit over the top.
(American here, it’s not democratic at all really)
Seriously please yes, to any Europeans visiting the USA, do this. You have my permission as a US citizen to never tip if it’s not listed on the menu as required.
Will never happen. Allnthisnwill do is fuck service workers over.
As others have said, these European tourists aren’t helping the system by doing this.
They are however, getting to enjoy acting like the very worst Americans - the ones who don’t tip and feel smug about it.
Unfortunately righteous causes don’t pay the bills.
Even when the righteous cause is a living wage? 🤔
All not tipping does in this scenario is make sure the worker gets less take home and the owner still gets their share.
But it doesn’t. This simply takes money from the servers.
Subsidizing business owners isn’t good for the workers
So you’re boycotting the business or you’re just not tipping the server?
Boycott
Yeah, not paying a tip cause you think the worker deserves a living wage definitely fucks the worker over, rather than the business. So there might be righteous anger, but it’s directed at the one you’re trying to help.
Only in the short term
Unfortunately, most servers are in the class of workers whose economic activity exists entirely in the short term. Without proper organization and unity in action, short term disruptions could have fatal implications.
They should organize
Nah, it’s better to guilt customers into paying your bills, for some reason.
Nice “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” impression. What’s next, the homeless should just stop being homeless?
You’re right! Organization is impossible, so workers should keep being exploited.
It will sound brutal, but they are stupid to living with this system. Imagine all costumer facing jobs to be depended by tips. Like tech support, cashiers, shop assistants, baristas, and every worker you meet as a consumer.
Tips was about extra for elegance and nice service. I know living wages are shit, and that’s why it became a norm all over the world. But it is something extra, so the worker can have pleasure, not to get through life.
For servers in the US specifically it’s not true that it’s something extra, it’s become an expected part of their compensation structure. They have a special, lower minimum wage they’re allowed to be paid. (If tips don’t cover the difference between that and minimum wage, they still have to be paid minimum wage.)
Sorry, on this parenthetical, for non-Americans, can you clarify?
Servers are paid less than minimum wage, but if they don’t get tips enough to cover the delta, they are paid minimum wage?
So does it go to the employer to cover your wage, are tips reported for tax, etc? Are there any repercussions if a server is consistently not tipped? Can they fire you?
It varies by state, some do require servers to be paid minimum wage and don’t have this weird exception. The ones day do allow them to be paid something like $2 an hour instead of $7.25 (I forget the exact numbers). Then if they don’t make enough in tips so their “effective” hourly pay for the day is minimum wage, then the employer had to cover the difference.
Tips are reported as taxable income. I’m sure many servers take cash tips and don’t, but that’s between them and the IRS. Assuming everyone is behaving, yes, tips are taxable income just like “normal” income. (Even income from illegal activities is considered taxable.)
Repercussions for not getting tips? Maybe. I haven’t been a server. I’m sure it can happen, I’m not sure how often it does. As for can they fire you? Yeah, most likely. Every state but one has what’s called “at will employment” which gives workers the “benefit” (lol) of being able to quit whenever, but also let’s employers fire you for any reason (apart from a very small number of things like discrimination).
Basically, say you work one hour. Minimum wage is $7.25. The server minimum is $2. You make $3 in tips. Your employer would need to cover the additional $2.25.
A lot of this is effectively moot since minimum wage has stagnated so far behind inflation. I think a lot of places are already offering above minimum wage for their lowest paid workers, but I’m not sure if that includes servers.
As a past server, it’s incredibly easy to make that threshold. But it’s also based on an average per pay period. If a server has a giant party that tips $30, and nothing else in a 6 hour period, it’s still 2.13 for those 6 hours. And any corporate restaurant hates paying servers. Servers would be fired if they consistently needed pay (not often) or worked overtime (decently often, because then corporations would need to pay $9something an hour)
It’s not extra here. It’s expected unless they do a really bad job. I don’t care how the rest of the world is. This is how it works here. Don’t come to our country and shit on our culture and expect us to thank you. What the fuck is wrong with you people?
Maybe tip workers shouldn’t have been fighting for tax less tips, and should have fought for a real wage?
I know so many tipped workers who fight to be able to guilt customers into paying their bills instead of just having a real wage. And they’re going to find out that people aren’t going to keep paying more and more guilt money to servers. I remember when 15% was the norm, and now people are saying it’s 20, and fuck that.
Aint no one cares about rightenouness when it comes to Jake and Emelie behind the counter at McDonalds, so what makes servers special?
Because i highly doubt they’re being tipped
Expectations is the main difference. Servers are expected much more than Jake and Emelie. Very few people go to a full service restaurant and are ok receiving the same service they do at McDonald’s. That’s understandable, the price between both is significant but I do think if full service servers were only expected to provide the same level of service and expertise as Jake and Emelie they’d be like, “fuck yeah!” Where are as the opposite wouldn’t be welcome without a raise by Jake and Emelie. I feel it’s important to consider this to further the discussion otherwise we’re no better than current Reddit.
What in the world are you talking about? And what makes you think anything you said is even remotely relevant?
No… people dont go to a resturant and expect McDonalds level of service. They’re also not going to pay McDonald prices nor expect to recieve McDonald food quality (or lack there of).
My expectation of atmosphere, food, and service is directly tied to the advertised price of the food.
Regardless. I’m not paying my garbagetruck driver twice. And they quite frankly performs a much more important service to me than any waiter ever could.
I pay my taxes. And they’re paid from that. Just like i pay for my food, and would expect my waiter/chef/manager to get paid from that.
As of your last note. Please just stop… people make up Lemmy, people make up Reddit, and people are always a bunch of bastards. No one is better than the other.
In the United States, servers are paid less than McDonalds employees.
Europeans should educate themselves more if they want to get involved in our broken, shitty systems.
The Resturants are required to pay a minimum wage. UNLESS, the tips they recieve brings them above minimum.
So no. They’re not paid less. At worst. They both make minimum wage. Americans should educate themselves on their own shitty system
Technically correct (over a pay period though) but this is how you get fired as a server.
You’re a pos, though.
Says the one not even tipping his minimum wage fastfood workers, why do you hate them?
and they call themselves a first world country…
That’ll show those service workers for working in the US.
Don’t get me wrong I fucking hate tipping culture so much and am eternally grateful that I don’t live in the US but who are you really punishing here?
Let’s say all customers just stop tipping, then the workers will be forced to find another job if the restaurants don’t start paying a living wage?
The restaurant will be forced to start paying a living wage or it won’t have any waitstaff left.
Restaurants usually take the latter option. I’ve been to plenty of places that are down to the owner cooking and his wife serving, no hired staff at all.
Restaurants are never gonna pay more to the staff than they collect for meals sold. Most of the restaurant’s income (if they aren’t a fancy place that sells a lot of alcohol) goes toward paying for food, rent, and utilities.
Because they’re definitely in a job they need tips to survive in due to the availability of other jobs that don’t.
Yep the the American job market is fucked, and it will be painful to change it especially when the people in charge are paid by the oligarchs.
One less painful way of moving away from tipping culture would be something like this: gradually increasing the base salary for workers, as I recall the minimum wage is below $3 for tipped staff. And then gradually decreasing the maximum allowed tip.
But the problem is: Show me a single state where the politicians would agree and then have the balls to go through with it while the oligarchs and supreme court will do everything in their power to keep the status quo.
Workers in Europe weren’t handed the rights they have, in some cases people literally died fighting for them. The only tip I have for American service workers is “unionize”.
You think American workers haven’t suffered and died fighting for their rights? I know this information is not exactly front and center in history books for reasons of shame and intentional obfuscation, but American worker rights history is stained in blood just as yours is.
Lmao you think we were handed this? We’ve been fighting for our rights to unionize for literally decades on end. Our government works with companies to literally kill us if we don’t go back to work. Men women and children have died fighting for the rights we DO have.
Fuck off with this “you’re only getting this because you aren’t trying hard enough to unionize” bullshit. Our rights have been bled for by hundreds of thousands over the years.
Don’t make excuses, try harder.
Our rights have been bled for by hundreds of thousands over the years.
Exactly, so honour the people that paid for your rights with their blood, and fight your exploiter instead of picking fights with other workers.
And that’s why it’s moral for me to mislead someone who is paid $2/hour into serving me for money I’m not going to give them 😌
Sure is telling that nobody who thinks this will tell their server upfront they’re not tipping, lmao
Whose misleading who? I would say that in this case, it would be the people that are not up front about the expected price of a service.
If tipping is required up front, then include it in the prices (and I don’t mean as an half hidden fee tacked on the announced prices like American businesses started doing).
American service workers are putting the blame on the wrong people, the only ones scamming them are their bosses.
I would say that in this case, it would be the people that are not up front about the expected price of a service.
So when an employer is misleading you the correct response is to short change the underpaid employee, who will have it come out of their inconsistent, unreliable pay? Can’t relate.
And you’re absolutely misleading the worker when you come to a place where tipping is expected and then don’t tip. They aren’t being nice to you and paying attention because they’re so enthralled by you, it’s because you’re expected to pay them. If you aren’t, say so.
Don’t go to the US
For many reasons.
Seriously. This is literally the kind of thing y’all call us “entitled” for.
Why are you entitled to a tip for bringing my food from the collection counter to my table?
Or spinning around the iPad tablet?
Just fucking pay your humans properly. I don’t get a tip for doing my job, they just pay me.
Fucks sake fix your shit, America.
imagine being so out of touch with reality that you lump all americans into one mentality.
you’re angry at some idea of an “american” you made up in your mind. not one that’s real.
I dunno man at least I’m being the bossmans bottom bitch.
If you can’t see how fucked tipping culture is you’re too cooked.
It’s because you think you’re entitled to ignore norms you don’t like when you’re in a foreign country.
I mean… what does the US do in every country, every single fucking time?
Ignore the norms, and do whatever they fucking want anyway.
Blow me.
I hope whatever is bothering you gets better
Yes, I too hope you get better.
There there
In the current system it will not change unless it is forced by things like this or progressive policies. You want them to just keep it going how it is?
World cup is too short term to change it, will have to be slow policy push for minimum wages.
Yeah, actually. Waiting tables is one of the few, ubiquitous jobs you can get without higher education that has a reasonable chance to pay well.
This flight against tipping is crab mentality. You’re not doing them any favors, you’re just going to lower their wage to $18/hr flat, with no healthcare and still shitty part-time hours, and some corpo is gonna pocket the difference.
Servers in USA don’t get 18.00 flat, usually.
If you want people to strike then support them, misleading them into thinking you’re going to be paying them for their time and labor (tipping is expected in the US, which is why in many states it’s legal to pay servers barely more than $2/hour) is just a dick move. Or just be upfront with them and tell them you’re not going to be tipping and get served accordingly. Or go to a place where non-tipped workers are employed. There are a lot of options that aren’t ‘shit on someone working for $2/hour and tell them it’s for their own good’.
For instance in Atlanta, the minimum cash wage for a tipped server is $2.13 per hour. If tips combined with wages do not reach the state minimum of $7.25, the employer must make up the difference.
Functionally no, there are a handful of restaurants in places like NYC and LA that have tried it, but part of the problem is that the servers want tips as well (you’re gonna have a hard time getting rid of something which the people being affected want).
I said this elsewhere, but any job can ask for tips but that doesn’t mean they’re making the $2 minimum wage. The cashier at McDonalds and the Barista at Starbucks are making minimum wage. In most cities those positions are making more than minimum wage because of market competition (Ziprecruiter says that the average McDonalds employee in Atlanta makes $12/hour, not that that’s a living wage either).
People who are making the $2 minimum wage generally make a lot more than that, and more than the McDonalds or Starbucks employee, because of tips. Tips are generally tax free, the positions are low skill, and if you don’t like this type of work or pay you’ll generally leave pretty quickly so the position is self selecting.
Here’s the math for two situations: 1.) You’re a bartender at a lunch pub with 12 spots at your bar, your shift is 10 am - 5 pm, you open at 11 and you’ll have on average 50% of the spots taken every 30 min. 7hr x 12 spots x 50% x 2 per hour = 72 customers. The average order will be between $15 - $30 with tip being $2.25 - $4.50 or $3.375 average. So 72 customers x $3.375 + $2 x 7 hours = $257/day x 5 days = $1,285 per week on average. Of that, you only pay taxes on $70 worth.
2.) You’re a waiter at an Outback Steakhouse, you have 5 tables, your shift is from 3 pm - 10 pm, you’re only really getting business from ~4 - 10 pm. During those hours your tables are 3/4 full and flipping every 45 minutes. 5 tables x 6 hours x 0.75 amount full x 3/2 flip rate = 33.75 customers. On average they are spending $50 - $100 each with tips of $7.50 - $15, average $11.25. So 33.75 customers x $11.25 + 7 hrs x $2/hr = $393.68/day x 5 days = $1968.40 per week on average. Again, you’re only paying taxes on $70 worth.
Now, here’s the catch, this is an average and assumes the location is very successful. You might instead have a Tuesday where it’s raining and you made $60 because no one came in, but then Friday the football game is on and you made $500. Maybe this restaurant isn’t pulling in customers so you’re not getting that kind of traffic. On paper the job can look very appealing, but in practice it typically falls short of those numbers.
Mostly correct. You do have to pay taxes on tips that the government knows about, which means any credit card tips and reported cash tips (which can be lied about of course because there’s no paper trail, but reporting $0 cash tips is highly suspicious).
Remember the whole “no taxes on tips” campaign that MAGA tried to use to get more working folks on their side? That’s because much/most tips are taxed.
Oh I understand, but the no tax on tips thing did go through. Through 2028 you can deduct up to $25k in tips. You still have to pay payroll taxes, but you will get them back when you do your taxes.
And as someone who’s spent much of my career in a tipped position, all tips should be taxed. All income should be taxed. It’s what keeps society working.
Now, anyone in a tipped position should be taxed less, but we shouldn’t be targeting the source of the income. Take two people; a server making $60k and a teacher making $60k. Both should be taxed less than they currently are (and billionaires taxed much much much more), but saying the server should pay less than the teacher because much of their income is taxed is prioritizing the wrong thing in society. Eliminating tax on tips is wrong when the republicans proposed it, and it was wrong when democrats agreed. Lower the tax burden on lower brackets, and raise it on those in the much higher brackets. Don’t target the source of the income.
Why are you only paying taxes on $70 worth?
It’s a bit of hyperbole, but it’s not too far off of the truth. In the past you only paid taxes on tips you claimed, so if you got all your tips in cash you perhaps didn’t claim them all (or maybe just enough to hit the minimum wage). If you got tips on credit or debit card then they were automatically counted. Last year they passed a rule that goes through 2028 in which you can deduct up to $25k of tips from your income. You still have to pay payroll taxes on those tips, but come tax time you can deduct up to $25k and get those taxes back. So if you made $60k including tips, maybe $10k of those tips were in cash, you can deduct $25k for tips and then the standard deduction is another $16k and you don’t claim the $10k in cash. $60k - $25k - $16k - $10k = $9k in taxable income.
And is $7.25 a livable wage in Atlanta?
Not even slightly.
But that doesn’t mean it should be the customer’s job to make up for the employer’s abuse.
It’s built into the price of the meal. It’s more systemic than making the customer pay the wait staff. The profit margins on food are razor-thin, despite “offloading” wait staff salary and no one in the restaurant getting healthcare. If you’re not going to tip, then don’t go out to eat. Going out and not tipping exclusively hurts the staff.
Going out and not tipping exclusively hurts the staff.
Staying in hurts them more when their place of business closes down due to lack of customers.
How tf am I supposed to know if their minimum wage is implemented properly
I begrudgingly tip, but usually 10-15%, like it used to be. I don’t buy into the current bullshit narrative of driving up the expected percentages, especially as prices rise as it is. Some might say I’m still an asshole for NoT pAyInG tHeM eNoUgH, but so be it.
So many tipped workers fight to keep being abused in this way, and I don’t reward that, even if I support these post-slavery practices through cultural guilt alone.
As soon as the “no tax on tips” passed my baseline tip dropped 5%.
What about the cooks? Hostess? Other back of house staff?
They generally get a portion of the tips. It varies from place to place, but when I was serving it was about 3% of total sales, regardless of tip percentage. If you did $1000 in sales, $30 of your tips went to BOH and support staff, whether you made $100 or $300.
Aren’t back of house staff generally making minimum wage, not server wage? That’s what I had the one place I worked for a bit.
Asking from a place of genuinely not knowing; are there a reasonable number of places where non-tipped workers are employed in this sort of sector? If so, it might be really handy to put together a list, so people can more easily make the choice to go there, rather than stiffing staff who need the tips to survive.
It’s going to vary wildly as to who is paired expecting to be tipped and who isn’t.
You’re not going to change the fundamentally broken culture of the US by punishing a few service workers. We’re not talking about the current system being good or whether or not it should change, we’re talking about a bunch of tourists refusing to tip.
I mean it’s not an individual act here, it’s starting to look like collective action. A mass boycott of tipping would force a crisis where workers walk out en masse. Euros are giving Yanks the push they need to build on this, with unions, a collective organization, strike funds. This is the only path towards tipping abolition, a relic of class oppression and a mechanism by which capitalists shift wage costs onto consumers, esp disgusting when we know attractive or white servers often receive more than equally skilled counterparts, deepening racial and gender pay gaps and fosters a power imbalance that enables harassment: 74% of female servers in the U.S. have experienced sexual harassment, often tolerated because their income depends on pleasing the customer.
“things like this” don’t contribute to changing it all though it doesn’t matter when the owner still gets theirs thats all they care about.
Only collective action can contribute to changing this, this is a start. Up to Yanks to carry on which will create a crisis where workers strike.
The problem is the workers who get tips generally like it because they can potentially make a lot more than a comparable fixed wage. On a good night you can make several times over the base wage, and under-report cash tips on your taxes (or omit them entirely, but the IRS might catch that).
So a lot of workers don’t want tipping to go away any more than the restaurant owners do.
Then they also have to deal with people who see through the shenanigans and refuse to tip. Fuck em.
But base wage for those positions is also significantly lower than minimum wage because the tips are expected to compensate for it, so the ceiling is higher but the floor is also lower. So refusing to tip at all does kind of make you out to be the asshole.
Unfortunately most people are just trying to survive and don’t really have the time or the energy to worry about the bigger picture.
Personally, I just split the difference and refuse to tip anywhere it’s not already factored into the wage structure. It’s not gonna change the situation but at least it helps hold the line.
Unionise and change the situation, or lose. I’m not paying money I can’t spare because people refuse to help themselves. I repeat, fuck em.
That doesn’t make you some champion of the working man, it makes you a cheap asshole. You are taking advantage of their labor more than the restaurant owner.
Advocate for change, absolutely. Refuse to patronize restaurants that expect/require tipping. I’d even say it’s fair to stop buying into the tip-inflation (15% used to be standard, then 18, now 20+), that’s fair, stick to 15%.
Hell, since at most restaurants you pay after the meal, why even pay that? After all, you knew there’s a cost before you had the meal but “you can’t spare it.” I’m serious, you wan’t to make a point, leaving a note that says “pay your staff better” and no cash makes a stronger statement than simply not tipping.
Living in the UK, I easily avoid giving any such slave driver my money.
I’m simply explaining why the rest of the world isn’t like the US, workers collectively fought for rights, simple as that. Either get on with changing it, or keep complaining about being stiffed (while pocketing off the books income in a lot of cases). Shrug
This discussion is about Europeans coming to the US and giving money to the restaurants themselves (the slave drivers) but not tipping the staff (the slaves). Absolutely support a decision to protest such a system by not patronizing it; but patronizing it but not tipping is just cheap. You’re not some savior of workers rights, you’re a cheap asshole. That is a harsh truth you need to come to terms with.
So be upfront and tell them you won’t be tipping, and get the service you’re paying for.
Shouldn’t servers tell the customers how much service they should expect based on the amount they plan to give in that case then?
Non tippers get a reputation around town and then are treated with bad service, largely ignored by the staff. Big tippers get treated to complimentary meals, desserts, wine, and more.
There is also the angle of poor servers being treated with low/no tips, the long term goal of which being to get them to treat customers better or drive them out of the business.
That would also require being unfortunate enough to be in the US for a protracted length of time.
While the UK is indeed a shit hole and getting worse thanks to Trump wannabes and other associated scumbags only a hair’s breadth from being out and out Nazis, it isn’t quite as bad as the US. Yet.
Edit: I have spent time in the states, but it’s direction in the last decade has put paid to me ever returning, for business or pleasure. Fuck that.
Those workers are the equivalent of scabs, even if they don’t realize it and don’t have bad intentions.
Yea, the thing I don’t get about the “if I don’t tip the workers will unionize” crowd is that they can just not go to tipping establishments or just eat takeout. You don’t have to basically steal labor from the workers. If you think “them making less money is better for the market” then just don’t make them work for you and refuse to pay what is expected. Boycotting tipping establishments would help, but that doesn’t get people free/less expensive stuff so they don’t do that.
Even if I take them in the best faith possible, they’re just exploiting the workers themselves and blaming the workers for their exploitation. In that situation they basically take the place of the bosses saying “if you want a raise go work somewhere else”.
I also hate tipping culture, but it’s so rude to go to another country (during a rise in fascism no less!) and act like by not following their norms you’re having any effect on the culture other than making yourself look like bad.
If the servers don’t get tips anymore, they might simply strike for a living wage. The current system just makes servers even more dependent with every single tip that replaces what should be a wage. Somethings gotta give, it’s not the workers, and the bosses wont budge without pressure, so even if it’s hard, it might be the only way something really changes for the better.
They aren’t going to strike from this event. Wait staff don’t have insurance or savings. Restaurant owners can’t afford to pay living wages with benefits; the margins are razor-thin as-is.
Have you never heard of strike funds? If service workers can’t even pay rent they’re going to strike and walk out, breeding a crisis that will make tipping culture untenable.
I’m being punished by being forced to tip.
Employer. Their employees will eventually quit, and it will get harder for them to hire new ones. Tipping does not help here, it lets the employers do what they’re doing now.
So instead of refusing to tip they should order take out and then make a stink about the tip economy in the US. My family rarely eats out and a large portion of that decision is because of the tip economy. When we do though, I make sure to tip the servers well unless they’re horrid because they won’t get paid otherwise.
You usually gotta tip for takeout too. At least where I live.
You would need to pay only the tips for this to work.
Pay the tip in cash, and run out on the bill.
I went to the US in 2024 and it was outrageous, every card terminal asked for it
I was under the impression it was just for sit down meals and not stuff like Starbucks or non food related things
somewhere around 2020 everyone and their mother starting asking for tips, even places that don’t pay tip-based wages. it’s just pure corporate greed over here. my guess is that it’s on by default by the payment processors and most people don’t turn it off.
It is, you can just put 0 for those things. I think they market those devices doing that as an opportunity for an upcharge.
This is a product of the myriad of unconfigured PoS systems. If you just Google shit you’re supposed to tip for before going into a country, you should be good to go. It’s the same thing I do when I travel. While I do agree that the tipping culture sucks, I think it’s more rude as a visitor to completely ignore social norms and constructs.
Travelers who aren’t tipping are just stiffing a waiter who is working their ass off during the busiest time for their establishment and probably making that person sour on whatever country they’re from. I can’t realistically see how this path leads to meaningful change or righteousness.
It is just for sit down meals and personal service. If someone is handling your car or your luggage or delivering food to your house, or cutting your hair that’s personal service.
The kiosks ask because they can blame the software and get away with it.
What you are describing is a major contributor to tip fatigue. Everything is asking for a tip, meanwhile actual tipped employees are still making $2 an hour. It’s out of control.
Hold up, you’re missing some nuance and it’s gonna make Europeans in here believe it’s true. In the US, any job can collect tips, it’s literally free extra money for no extra work so that’s why you see the tip option everywhere. That said, not all positions which collect tips get the service industry $2 minimum wage.
Most positions such as barista, hair stylist, etc get paid minimum wage plus they get whatever tips you give pay them. These positions typically get minimum wage because, despite there being a tip option, most people don’t tip significantly (hair stylist might depending on the type, but their base fees are already very high). Think of these as your $1 tip category, it’s people who you aren’t socially obligated to tip, don’t expect a tip, get paid at least minimum wage regardless of your tip, and contribute to tip fatigue.
The other tip group are full tip positions, such as waiter or bartender. These positions get $2 an hour unless they fail to get enough tips on average to meet the $7 minimum wage. Realistically, if they aren’t getting at least $7 minimum in tips then they are going to leave or get fired long term. These positions you are socially obligated to tip and they expect a tip. Strangely enough, some of the biggest proponents for this tipping position are the people that work in this field, career waiters and bartenders, because despite the very low potential income it also has a fairly high potential income for a low skill job depending on a lot of different factors. This is your percentage tip category.
The $1 tip category won’t go away, no matter how annoying it is, because it’s literally free money and no one expects you to do it (and if they do feel free to laugh in their face and never give them business again). The % tip category also probably won’t go away because it allows the business to shift costs to the customer and the people in the career support it.
You might wonder why people in the % tip category would support it, it’s because it’s a low technical skill job (hard work only), a lot of the tips are tax free, people who don’t like it leave the career, and it often attracts certain types of people (perhaps neurodivergent is the right word, but I really mean the type of people who don’t want a 9-5 Mon-Fri job).
barista
Wow. I’m in Australia and the person who gets most of my tips is a barista, anywhere
I generally empty my change in the tip jar if they have one and the service is good. I believe in tipping good service
100% agree and that’s why people do give the barista a dollar or two. If your drink was $5 then 20% works out to be about a dollar, but it’s different from servers who get 20% on $40. At least in the US, if you frequent somewhere, especially if you are a recognized regular, then you should tip because people will remember it.
If I was in the US, and I bought a coffee equivalent to what my local gives me, I’d happily tip regardless of culture or wage. The cafe down the road is insanely good, but there’s not a lot of bad coffee around here.
I would say that experiences vary greatly and there are plenty of discerning people who appreciate great coffee. Local coffee shops in the US are plentiful, but we perhaps get a bad reputation because of McDonalds and Starbucks. There is something to be said for just wanting a coffee or espresso right now quickly without too much regard for quality or price, that’s where McDonalds and Starbucks reign. Personally, I never order from either because their coffee and espresso is bad IMO. Now, my local coffee joint (which is a local place that operates out of a shack with a drive through) makes great coffee and I always give them a dollar or two.
But in the end it comes down to: FUCK YOU PAY YOUR FUCKING STAFF
Staff are paid though? I think I’m having trouble with understanding what your specific complaint is? Are you from the US?
Yes, but you can’t just ask someone “Do you make minimum wage? I need to know so I can decide how much to tip.”
I don’t know how much is normal to tip at some places. At restaurants, 20% is standard, ±5% depending on quality of service.
But at a coffee shop or a hairdresser or anywhere else like that, when the prompt for a tip comes up, I’d feel guilty to put anything lower than 20% because that’s how I’m programmed to feel about tipping. It would feel rude to press “no tip” or just $1 or just 5%. But also, cognitively I know 20% is too much for those roles because they already make at least minimum wage. But asking “what’s the normal amount to tip” seems rude too.
So I usually end up overtipping, even when it puts a strain on my finances. And that moves the overton window and begins to ingrain the obligation into cultural expectations. And that’s precisely what the vendors want to happen. They want you to feel guilty so you tip too much, so that it becomes normal to tip too much and people have the option of “no tip” gradually taken away from them.
That’s why in Europe when you use those american POS machines, the staff will click “no tip” for you before even handing you the machine. One, because they don’t want to guilt you into tipping, and two because they don’t want tipping culture to sneak into their societies. Because if it does, not only will it become a social obligation that no one wants, but it could also potentially give employers permission down the line to start paying less, the way they do in the US.
European wait staff like being payed a living wage without relying on tips. And you can feel the difference. They’re not nearly as stressed out as servers in the US, and the interactions feel more genuine because they don’t need to kowtow or be obsequious.
When it comes to % tips, back in the day the base number was 15%, I personally feel like that isn’t enough today. I start with 20% and then deduct for poor service (EDIT: it takes some pretty poor service for me to deduct at all, I would say 95% of the time I leave a 20% tip), I never leave zero tip, but I will leave a bad tip, and if I keep having bad service I just won’t come back. I would say my floor for a % tip is 10%. If service is so bad that I wouldn’t leave even that, then I have and will stand up and leave early. This is the kind of situation where I ordered a soda, 30 minutes passed, and the waiter never came back. Hey, I’m out, here is $5 for the soda and I’m probably never coming back here.
As to when I % tip, my personal rule is that it’s only for seated service which I qualify as the following: Someone seats me, someone comes to the table and takes my order, someone comes to the table to refill drinks and bring my food, and someone comes to clean the table when I leave. If any of these is not happening then I probably am not going to % tip. Did I have to order from a counter, did I have to go get my food, did I have to fill my own drink, did I have to dispose of the waste myself? There are certainly exceptions to this rationale, but I would say 90% of the time it works.
Some area for nuance is fair. If I sat myself, ordered from a counter but a lady brought it out to me, and she filled up my drink, but I threw the tray contents away I might leave her a few bucks if I have cash, but won’t feel like I have to. Another good rule is that if you have to pay before the service is completed then I’m not tipping 99% of the time.
hairdresser or anywhere else like that, when the prompt for a tip comes up,
Hairdressers are a bit special and depend on the type. If you’re a white man going for a 15 min buzz cut and paid $20, no tip. If you are a black woman with 2 feet of hand braided hair and you are getting your hair done every 3 weeks (unbraid, cut, wash, dry, maybe color?, condition, rebraid), that hair styling is like 4+ hours of work, their fee is probably $300+ and you will probably tip them $50+ easily.
the staff will click “no tip” for you before even handing you the machine.
Hehehehe, in the US sometimes those fuckers will push the 25% before handing it to you. I get feeling bad, but it’s important to set rules for what you think is fair and then follow them, even if that means telling them to take the check back and put in a different %. I’ll go one better, back in college a group of friends went out and due to our party size the establishment automatically added a 15% tip. One of my friends laughed and told the waiter to take his check back and to redo the tip, the waiter was at first like, “Sorry sir, but our policy is to add 15% to all groups of 8 or more” but my friend said, “No, you were a great waiter and I want to tip you 20%, but you didn’t give me any place to do that on this bill.”
European wait staff like being payed a living wage without relying on tips. And you can feel the difference. They’re not nearly as stressed out as servers in the US, and the interactions feel more genuine because they don’t need to kowtow or be obsequious.
I think this is a great point and hits on part of the problem. American service staff is a career of delusion, similar to construction. On paper they see they can make X amount of money, but they never do, they don’t think they need benefits because they’re young and healthy, and they think they will be as fit as they are in their 20’s forever but they won’t. Construction and service alike are exploitative and they aren’t in a healthy place, but withholding tips from the worker doesn’t fix that situation and just hurts the employee.
In the USA, it is illegal for anyone to make less than federal minimum wage. If a tipped employee does not earn tips, the employer must make up the difference. To not do so is wage theft and illegal.
It doesn’t work on a per-shift basis. If they work a slow, below-minimun weekday and a busy, above-minimum weekend, they aren’t bumped up on the weekday. What actually happens is their weekend is counted against their weekday. Many shifts they do in fact walk out with sub-minimum wages that do not get corrected.
It’s a system that’s great for the rockstars is busy urban areas pulling in hundreds of dollars a shift. For everyone else in the industry, not so much.
“But overall they’re making above minimum.”
While true, it’s similar to a laborer working a 12 hour shift and not getting any OT because they’re under 40 for the week and OT doesn’t kick in until hour 41. They still worked a 12 hour shift and 4 of those hours should have been OT, but due to how the hours are counted their employer is able to avoid the payout.
In conclusion, mono means one, and rail means the capital is fucking over the working class.
My fucking girlfriend always asks me if I tip when we get counter service and there’s a prompt on the pos, and I can’t get thru to her that unless it’s sit down, a bar, or delivery I don’t tip unless there’s an actual reason to do so.
I fucking hate that there’s a cultural guilt in this country of wasting 15-20% extra on food to uphold a fucking post-slavery jim crow policy.
Exactly. When it comes to food service, if all you did was make it and bring it to the counter, that’s all just rolled into the price of the meal. If you’re bringing it to my house or refilling my drinks and taking empty plates away while I sit and enjoy myself, then that’s beyond the meal itself and I’ll happily tip for that service.
Didn’t they have self checkouts that asked for tips at some point?
🤯
Not sure where you live but this is now also the case in Germany
Really? I have seen a tip window on a card terminal maybe once or twice within the last year.
I also find our German tipping culture pretty okay. Tips usually aren’t expected but welcome. Usually you just round up a bit. A 10% tip is still considered a good tip.
It’s nowhere near as bad as in the USSame. I’m in southwest Germany and I can’t remember the last time I saw a tip screen at a card terminal.
Finland and nearby countries, I remember seeing a tip question in a terminal once in my entire life. And the UI was so confusing that I probably managed to tip 2 cents or something by accident.
UK, a few chains tried it here but I imagine it was enough to drive people away so you don’t see it much anymore
Fortunately, I have never encountered a tip asking card terminal in northern Germany. When I tip, I do it cash anyways. Tips don’t go to the boss…
Yep, in Berlin they’re fucking everywhere. There are also a lot American tourists/immigrants now who happily tip 20% or 25%, so it has slowly become more and more standard in the last 10 years. Kill me now…
That’s because businesses use POS machines with american software. It’s all over Europe now, but usually the staff will click “no tip” before handing it to you, because they don’t want tipping culture sneaking in and threatening their livable wage.
